Thanks Heavy

[fmholdover]

As a newbie, I'd like to say thanks for the guidance,I built my own table , and practiced daily for 3.5 months , I made my table bouncy because thats what I have to deal with in my area, I found it a bit difficult, but preserver'ed on . Im not the best shooter in the world for sure, but I made some progress. I used a basic system You mentioned , It was the six eight and field bet ,and it worked pretty good. A few days ago I bought in for 12 cashed 19 useing it, and I never touched the dice . The reason was its a new table, micro fiber and hard . where I had been training on a bouncy table for the last few months I was a little uncertain about it . Hennyway, I did well with the system .But I was thinking to myself, Hey, this is to easy, somethings wrong. I thought about it for a while and realized there were not many short rolls

I went back today , bought in for 19 cashed out 18, Lots of short rollers today , it was ugly. hard to get anything going , up a little, down a little , spinning my wheels , after 2.5 hours I called it a day . I did make some good rolls from stick right 2, I never shoot from stick right, let alone stick r 2 But I did well hitting some points and rolling for 12-14 rolls ,

So, whats the best way to ajust to this kind of table? I expect it to be more of the norm, than the exception. My thinking is trying a dont pass for 30, while placing the 6 and 8 for 18 each, which I did do a few times but it wasnt going anywhere for me.

Now Im thinking of only betting on myself unless theres decent shooters , whats a good ajustment for a choppy table like this ?

And thanks for all the helpfull info .

[heavy]

Choppy tables are the worst because they can flip either way on you at the drop of a hat, AND the guy you'd LEAST expect to toss a hand will end up tossing them for an hour and a half and you'll stand there with your TUMA (thumb up my ass) for the entire hand thinking "He CAN'T toss another TEN" after he's tossed 14 of them and you've missed out on winning about $12K at that point. Alas, I know. I've been there and done that, watching a fat, silly, first-time shooter who had no idea how to play the game toss back-to-back full ATS wins in Kansas City one night, then the dice passed to his boyfriend, equally silly, equally clueless about the game, and HE tossed the full ATS twice back to back in the same hand. FOUR full ATS scores in two hands. And I stood there like a dumbass and watched them both AND started out on the Don'ts on these goofballs. Anyway, nothing against them or their lifestyle - just that I would never bet on the right side on a first time shooter (unless maybe it was a female, in which case I'd go with the superstition) who was drunk and didn't even know how to bet. Did I say they were betting 25 - 25 - 25 on the ATS with 5 - 5- 5- for the dealers? They had the dealers up for red chips on all of the bets and were letting the dealers press their own action. They were up for green chips that were pressed up to black and purple, thanks to the dealers assistance. It was freaking unreal.

ANYWAY, I think you were on the right track with the DP plus Place the Six and Eight. But I'd make it a One Hit - Can't Miss play where the DP and the Six and Eight bets are the same size. So in a $15 game you'd play an $18 DP bet and $18 each on the Six and Eight once the DP is established. You make that bet even if the Six or Eight is the point because you're hedging off the Six or Eight at that point. You one one hit on the Six or Eight to guarantee you a win for the hand. It will pay $21. Now you cannot lose. IF the Seven shows you'll win $18 on the DP and lose $36 on the Six and Eight, but you'll already have won $21 so you'll be $3 ahead. Now, what you WANT to happen is for the shooter to toss a hell ton of Sixes and Eights. This doesn't happen often but it does happen on occasion. I had a shooter at Caesars Palace in Vegas set the Six as the point one morning when I was playing this strategy. He then proceeded to toss something like 13 Eights. Taking and pressing every other hit, I had my Eight up to $1800 and had collected $2100 on it. I had $300 in my hand waiting for it to roll again, because I was going to power press it to $4200 on the next hit. But . . . the Seven rolled and I lost the $1800 bet - BUT - I won my $25 Don't Pass bet. Also worth noting, I won over $4K on the Place Bet progression on the Eight. But THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN OFTEN.

On the Six, Eight, Field play, don't stretch that out over a long period of time because the house edge over the Field bet really cuts into the overall edge and dilutes your wins on the Six and Eight. Also, you're not covering the Five which is a miss out on you. You want to be sure you're sizing these bets properly to maximize profit on everything, and you want to get in and out of the whole Field portion of the game early. When I play this strategy I only use the Field bet to generate winnings I can use to Place the other bets. Also, I will Hop the Fives for $2 when I'm in the Field so I have them covered as well. A $2 Fives Hopping will pay $15, or $16 and down. On a $15 table that's the right amount to Place a Number. Now let's say you've got $30 each on the Six and Eight, $15 in the Field and $2 hopping on the Five. You need to have your Six and Eight bets about double the size of your Field bet so your payouts are worthwhile. Now you have everything covered except the Seven. If the Nine rolls you have a $15 win in the Field minus the $2 loss on the hopper. Place the Nine with that $15, leave the $15 Field bet up and toss in another $2 for the hop fives. Next the Five rolls. You lose your Field bet but collect $15 on the Five hopping. You can either use that $15 to Place the Five or replace the Field Bet. I'd replace the Field Bet and toss in another $2 for the Five hopping. Now let's say the Five rolls again. Bingo. You get paid $21 for the Nine Place Bet and $15 for the Nine in the Field. Place the Five with the Field win. Lock up $6 from the Nine win and Place the Ten for $15. In this case we're going to assume the Point was Four and you're already on it on the Pass Line, so now you have all of the numbers covered and you just start collecting and pressing. But get your bets paid for before you press too much.

As far as only betting on yourself - that gets pretty boring pretty fast. You'll need to eventually learn how to read the table and shooters. I've written a lot about that through the years. There area many articles about it here on the forum if you'll dig in and read. It's mostly about paying attention to how the shooters toss, what their average hand length is, whether they area good or they suck, and what numbers they rolled on their last hand. Did they have a dominant number they rolled? Did they set the dice? You need to be able to recognize these things on the fly and remember them from shooter to shooter - all the way around the table. If you cannot remember them, take a pad and pen and take notes during the session. Lots of people do it.

Good luck. Keep those reports coming.

[fmholdover]

Thanks for the advice, theres nothing like going into the game and calling an audible on the play according to conditions , if the table is going one way, go with the table dont fight the dice. I loved your 2 dollar hop on the fives!! Im going to try that out on my table. Maybe Im wrong, but on a cold table I didnt want to expose myself to another bet. I felt the the five hit infrequently enough that I could pass on it , but Hopping the 5 for 2 seems like a great way to limit exposure on a cold table , and still covering all the numbers. Thanks for the help

[barigh]

I have been playing craps for about 10 years, but I do not have a practice rig (or even space to put one) to really develop DI skill. Thus I will probably always be a random roller. Would you agree that the best I can do is develop the skill to recognize what the table is doing (hot, cold, or choppy) AND have a betting strategy appropriate to each one? And of course I need the money management discipline to know when to walk away. What advice do you have for players like me (I know there are many)? What strategy do you recommend when first approaching a table, assuming it is in a choppy mode?

[fmholdover]

I tried something different the other day, it was a fairly cold table Nobody was really hitting thier points , So I played 162 across and 160 on DP , I have to say, I was doing pretty good for a while I think I was up 8-9 hundred when 2 new shooters jumped in and starting hitting 7-11 on the come outs and hitting thier points , they were beating me like a red headed step child . Didnt take to long , I cashed out 150 up which I was pretty disappointed with but lesson learned , the system seems well geared to a cold table , which worked well for me, I need to switch gears when the table turns hot .

My shooting isnt great, but I have improved , I seem to keep the dice on axis , get them die inch from the wall often , but single or double pitch a lot More single for sure. throwing hard ways with that throw I dont seem to get many, but throwing hardways with a Yuri throw, low spin , lob, near the wall works better for me

[heavy]

barigh said:

I do not have a practice rig (or even space to put one) to really develop DI skill. Thus I will probably always be a random roller. Would you agree that the best I can do is develop the skill to recognize what the table is doing (hot, cold, or choppy) AND have a betting strategy appropriate to each one? And of course I need the money management discipline to know when to walk away. What advice do you have for players like me (I know there are many)? What strategy do you recommend when first approaching a table, assuming it is in a choppy mode?

Even if you don't have a practice rig or a place to put one (everyone has a bed and most people have an ironing board and that's all of the space you need. But that's another answer entirely) If nothing else, learn how to set the hardway set quickly. Always set it with the 5's on top and the 4's facing you. The Ace pip will be facing right on both dice, the Six pip will be facing left. Set them like this every time and you'll be able to do it quickly and easily. Now, onto the grip. Use all three fingers - index, middle and ring fingers, down the front faces of the dice all the way to the deck. Put your ring finger on the right hand side of the dice to help keep them flush. Holding them lightly with your three fingers, slide them across the layout slowly to the left and as they press up against your pinky tighten your grip with your middle finger and thumb, then the index and ring fingers until the dice are firmly gripped and centered in that grip. Now you have a grip.

Now, by DI standards, you don't have a good set and you don't have a good grip. But from a "Hey, this guy is new to this stuff and he's not going to be able to keep the dice on axis so the Hardway set is fine and the grip will be okay for that too" point of view - it'll work out just fine. All YOU have to do is to toss the dice consistently, release them consistently, landing them on the same spot consistently. Now that will take practice, but you can practice that in the casino. And in time you will see improvement. Try to remember what numbers you roll in your live sessions. If possible, get someone to write your rolls down for you so you can review them later. Look for repeating numbers - particularly numbers that are repeating at a higher than expected frequency. If you're seeing the Five roll every five tosses then that's a dominant number, because mathematically it should only show up once every nine tosses. The Ten should only show up three times in thirty-six rolls. The ten should only show up three times in thirty-six rolls. So if you see the four AND ten combined show up more than one roll in six - they're "streaking" and should be bet. If you're seeing three fours and/or tens roll in six tosses you'd damn sure better have some money on them. Learning how to read a table isn't about sticking a thermometer up the boxman's ass - it's math. Are the number of rolls between sevens E X P A N D I N G or contracting?

The strategy I play most often when first walking up to a table is One Hit - Can't Miss, which is a table minimum Don't Pass combined with a table minimum Place Bet on the Six and Eight. For Example, if the game is a $15 one I might play (and this pisses some dealers off when I do it) $18 on the Don't Pass. Then once the bet is established on a point I'll Place the Six and Eight for $18 each. Regardless of what point is established (even if it's the Six or Eight) I place those numbers. If I get a hit on the Six or Eight I turn a profit for the hand. Guaranteed. $3. If I make that $3 and the shooter tosses a Seven on the next throw then I net just the $3. But if he tosses another Six or Eight I make another $21, which puts $24 guaranteed in the rack. Now we're about to be off to the races, because if he tosses another Six or Eight I'm dropping $3 out of that last payout and pressing the number that rolls up to $42 - OR - I'm pressing the Six and Eight BOTH up to $30. At this point either way works for me. The next hit will pay me $35. But if I get a second hit at $35 - THEN I'm going to drop $1 and press both to $48. Why not? Or maybe why? I could just press both to $42 and lock up an additional $12. Fine. Let's do that. Now they're both at $42. Next hit pays $50 for $1. Take it. Next hit pays $50 for $1. Go to $90 on the number that hits. WHY? Because when pressing aggressively I ONLY want to bet on the winning horse. And I think of this as a horse race. Say in the above examples the number that rolled was the Six every time. Then WTF am I doing pressing the Eight? I could already have my Six up to $180 and be collecting $210. But now I have to collect $105 at $90, then press to $180 to collect that $210, then collect $180 AGAIN so I can drop $30 and power press that $180 to $420. And WHY the hell would I power press a $180 bet to $420? Because that's the ONLY way I'm likely to get it pressed up to $1800, where I'll drop $300 when it hits and power press it to $4200 so I can collect $5000 for $100 when it hits again - and then press it to Table Max - which is a hell of an accomplishment on a strategy that's designed as just a simple grind to keep you busy and in the game while waiting for the dice. But sometimes these things HAPPEN, and you have to be PREPARED.

Money management is easy. When you get tired of leaving the casino broke you'll figure it out. I spell it out time and time again here on the forum. Figure out how many sessions you're going to play before going to the casino - whether it's for one day or one week. Divide your bankroll into session amounts, get a stack of envelopes and label them Session 1, Session 2, Session 3, etc. and label one last envelope Take Home Money. Put all of your session money in the appropriate envelopes and seal them. Put a rubber band around them with the Take Home Money envelope (unsealed) in the back of the stack. When you get to your casino hotel room, put all of the envelopes in the room safe. When you are ready to go play - take one session's envelope (Session 1 for that session) out of the envelope and take that envelop ONLY to the casino with you. If you want to play a second session you MUST return to your room for the envelope for Session two. Take your session one money to the table and buy in. Regardless of how much you buy in for, pre-establish a win goal and a loss limit. Let's say you're buying in for $600 per session. Your average bet will be $60. You have a $300 win goal and a $300 loss limit. By maintaining that loss limit you are guaranteed you will go home at the end of this trip with at least half of your bankroll, and there's a good chance you'll go home with a win. Now, a win goal is not a win stop. As long as you are winning you continue to play. If you find yourself up $450, you take your original $600 buy in plus a $300 guaranteed profit and put that in the back rack. Continue to play with your $150 in surplus chips for as long as you continue winning. But if things turn around and suddenly that $150 turns into $75, things are going the wrong way and it's time to cash out and leave. So add that remaining $75 to your back rack, cash out and walk with a $375 win. Then go upstairs and put that $600 buy in plus the $375 win in your Take Home envelope in the safe and it DOES NOT COME OUT until you get HOME. Simple as that. Money management done and handled. When you're ready to play another session - take out a second envelope. But you should have those sessions pre-planned. Two on day one. Four on day two. Four on day three. One on day four. Eleven sessions total. Something like that.

As far as discipline is concerned - no one can teach you that. It's a lesson you have to learn the hard way. Most people either have it or they don't. Don't get me wrong. We all let our guards down and break discipline from time to time. But you can't make a habit of it. Do that and you'll need to start looking for a seat at GA, and we don't want that.

[heavy]

I tried something different the other day, it was a fairly cold table Nobody was really hitting thier points , So I played 162 across and 160 on DP , I have to say, I was doing pretty good for a while I think I was up 8-9 hundred when 2 new shooters jumped in and starting hitting 7-11 on the come outs and hitting thier points , they were beating me like a red headed step child . Didnt take to long , I cashed out 150 up which I was pretty disappointed with but lesson learned , the system seems well geared to a cold table , which worked well for me, I need to switch gears when the table turns hot .

Man, I just wouldn't want to fade the Seven and Eleven on the Come Out to get that $160 DP established. I'll play a $25 DP all day and rarely even think about tossing out any sort of a hedge on it. It's just not worth hedging at that level, IMHO. However, I still recall the days when I was playing black chips on the Don'ts laying odds on some of these boats that had 10X odds. You can get some serious jack out there on a Four and Ten and lose it in a heartbeat on a hot shooter.

[barigh]

With regard to Heavy's suggestion of using an ironing board and bed to practice on, I envision using the ironing board as the surface to set the dice on and then throwing them onto a bed. I have always had trouble getting the dice to stay together when I throw, so I see how this would give me a place to practice the throw and get a little better control on them. Thanks for the suggestion; I will definitely try it out

[220Inside]

A chair also works well for the foundation of a makeshift toss station. Use the chair back to simulate the rail to lean over and put an empty box on the seat to simulate the approximate height of the deck. A towel over the box can also be used to provide a felt like surface feel.

[fmholdover]

I tried something different the other day, it was a fairly cold table Nobody was really hitting thier points , So I played 162 across and 160 on DP , I have to say, I was doing pretty good for a while I think I was up 8-9 hundred when 2 new shooters jumped in and starting hitting 7-11 on the come outs and hitting thier points , they were beating me like a red headed step child . Didnt take to long , I cashed out 150 up which I was pretty disappointed with but lesson learned , the system seems well geared to a cold table , which worked well for me, I need to switch gears when the table turns hot .

Man, I just wouldn't want to fade the Seven and Eleven on the Come Out to get that $160 DP established. I'll play a $25 DP all day and rarely even think about tossing out any sort of a hedge on it. It's just not worth hedging at that level, IMHO. However, I still recall the days when I was playing black chips on the Don'ts laying odds on some of these boats that had 10X odds. You can get some serious jack out there on a Four and Ten and lose it in a heartbeat on a hot shooter.

Sometimes God protects the foolish. Tried again today, I took your advice into consideration and reduced my Bets . Bought in at 2k cashed out 18K, I imagine it could have been worse .Nobody was doing well, nothing seemed to work right or wrong , I do have difficulty with the rail. Im short and I Guess I have to make a rail for my rig due to the curved at the end of the table I have to really lean over to get a shot at the back wall , throws me off a bit