devils foray

[Operator]

hey guys ive been on the internet trying to find my way back to the devils foray by a guy named bob who lived in ohio. Any who no luck. It used to be on pro boards but thats gone. Im cross ref it with another system to see which is stronger. If some one could send a pm or a link to bob i would be grateful. Well see you guys in a week keep posting i love the reading material.

[Bankerdude80]

There is a link to a site that has a variety of so-called "system strategies". It might be there.

Courtesy of SIA:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2995

[bobbylee]

Operator,
You and Lucky have good memories. It's been quite awhile since I posted the DF Strategy.
In the "Playing the Do's and Don'ts" Thread, both MSS and Wild Child nibble at the edges of it, by using both the d&d's in same Hands.

Since the changeover to Heavy's new board, I've been a lurker. Since the first of this year, my casino time has been curtailed due to a hip replacement and MERSA infection from which the dutch uncle, infectious diseases doctor put the fear of God into me about the do's and don'ts for longevity on this plane.

Give me a few days, I'll summarize for you.

Bobbylee

[bobbylee]

Here is an updated summary I've put together outlining the Devil's Foray strategy, with some comments from the old files into this one post.
The example hand included, hopefully will clarify the verbiage.
Due to the unavoidable switch in Heavy's boards, past records aren't available of all the posts in that DEVIL'S FORAY thread. The Devil of course, is the 7 and makes his raid/Foray on the numbers you have selected for the Dont 7 out winners; is the clean-up and the last shot of a hand.

I've put a positive spin on it with some background. It works for me. Play it and judge for yourself.

When I first posted back in 2005-2006, the DF was initially within my Personal Practice Results thread, which old-time subscribers will recognize, before starting the separate DF thread. Based on the questions back then, some points bear repeating in the overall explanation in this post – not to say there may not be renewed questions.
I have some of those posts. I thought it was a lost item from back then for other players. Thanks for asking, here is the gist of the strategy.

Playing the DF Strategy is a fun way to play , as are most strategies. It requires your attention as each toss can affect how much the strategy earns/loses. It's a flexible strategy requiring decisions prior to the next toss. The 7 is your friend, so long as it does not come until you decide. The largest risk playing DP WOTCO – with working Place bets – is the first toss if it should be a 7, as in a 7out 100% loser. Each succeeding toss has lesser dollar risk.
Likely, you will toss only one or a few more wins before deciding for the 7 winner.

Adding to the satisfaction of play you will see variations for profitable play starting with greater or smaller bet sizes and more or fewer tosses for a successful hand.
The first winning tosses are on the Do side, with the final toss winning the Dont
bet(s) – keep that plural in mind, a matter which MP did emphasize during his DF play.

The DF play is intended for the DI shooter, being/getting equally comfortable betting and switching between each Do and Don't side – during the same hand; just a visual sweep before each toss, is enough to note any needed changes in the overall bet structure – changes to prevent interim damage from the 7out.

The Devil's Foray Strategy contrasted to the usual PL play is capable of more winning sessions, more profit, with fewer tosses, less time per hand, using same size bets, especially at un-crowded tables.
These same pluses are there in your favor when recovering from the inevitable, occasional losing hand - more below on that.


THIS IS THE BASIC DF play:
Play it at home – most questions will be answered by doing that.

-DP WOTCO with Working Place bets Across. Size all bets equal.
-toss for two maybe three Place scores - the WOTCO Place score counts as the first.
-DC bet with each toss after Comeout - the WOTCO DP bet is your first Dont
-with the selected maximum number of Place scores, then switch/balance the bet structure, and Lay Odds on your selected most 7friendly Dont bet(s).
-recheck to assure no bet remains that could lose to a 7.
-toss for the Devil to sweep the board.

Practice play the example below which includes explanations and rationale.

Note that MP's Darkside Paradox amply explains the benefits of winning the Donts– nothing left, nothing wasted, you earned it, you keep it.

Profit is not as dependent on an increasing number of Pressed (and riskier) tosses per Hand, rather what you do within your first few several tosses using one or more Sets. The DI shooter is comfortable for the few shots within his SRR.

Since each hand is short. how does that short hand affect volatility? Very much to the good.

Glad you asked: Doey-Don't play is not used.

The initial Place bet wins fully transition to bet(s) on the Dont side being won with a single 7winner toss.
A DI shooter can hit the 7's, more easily than the random player, using any 7 favorable Set – 6/36 and his bias. I use three Sets: comeout, place, and 7out.
Tip: for scoring with Place bets, use your Set of choice which might best assure no box number repeats.

And as with most Strategies, the telling is more complicated than the play itself. Practice the example and then with your own tossed hands.

Here are a few of some interesting comments made in the old posts beginning with the first, not too positive review:

- when switching to the DF, he said “What a crappy way to end the night.”
- “...it ain't boring.”
--as per the old ad, “... I'm Mr Opportunity and I'm knocking.”
- MP stated: “...Bob, I played it for four days straight without a problem.”
-”Guys, one of the interesting things about the DF strategy, is it's adaptability. You can play it any which way to Sunday.”
- MP stated: “...you have to put a bit of thought into before trying it.”
-MP stated: “In the case of Bob's Devil's Foray strategy, your Wincraps rolls-file results may surprise the crap out of any players with an SRR of less than 8:1 (my emphasis added)
-”I just can't bring myself to play the Donts.”

Take my advice and LOSE that attitude if it applies; you will gain added “job satisfaction.”
A considerable advantage of Dont play:
If the shooter should actually screw the pooch and repeat the Laid DP or DC, he still has the dice. He is warmed up and can still rectify the loss quickly.

Also and separately, should you have been losing due to chiken feeding, and you are short on time with just enough time for one more hand,, a nice quick Dont win on your shooting can refill your rack.

FOR PRACTICE PLAY ON YOUR LAY-OUT FELT, DO THIS EXAMPLE

It is a $25 table, using $30 on each and every bet you make, before Laying Odds for the fourth toss.

FIRST TOSS:-
$30 DP WOTCO
-Place/Buy $30 each, $180Across and Working ($32A works just as well)
The 5 which now becomes the CO point scores Place$42

SECOND TOSS:
DC of $30(will go to the 4).
score with a Place 4 for $60 (don't quibble the vig)

THIRD TOSS:
DC of $30(will go to the 6),
The 6 scores for $35

NOTE: thus far, the 5, 4, and 6 have won a profit of $137 and each now have an equal Place and Dont bet; the three bets are balanced, while the 8,9,and 10 have only unbalanced Place bets. Balanced numbers can't result in a loss.
I opted for the fourth toss to be the 7. Consider what bets are exposed to a 7 and take them Down.
And for this example, decide if you want to also take Place bets Down for any other numbers. I prefer not to Lay on the 6 or 8, and will leave up their Place bets – 6/8's from the Dont are too close to gambling and likely will/can increase volatility and limit profits. Yes, a single 6 or 8 Dont with Odds does win – sometimes. If a box number repeats, ie, the 4,5,or 6 in this example, another restructuring is in order – practice and see why.

FOURTH TOSS:
I chose for this example to Lay Odds on both the 4 and 5 (not an on-axis number) – more aggressive than just going for the 7winner on only one number. Take down the Place 4 and 5 bets and also take down the unbalanced Place bets of the 8,9,10 .
lay $100 Odds on the 4DC and $75 Odds on the 5DP.
No DC bet here, of course, tossing for a 7.
Shoot for the 7winner. If no World numbers, and no repeat Box numbers, and the Devil doing his assignment in one toss - highly doable, this hand is complete and fully successful in four tosses.

The prettiest sight playing DF comes now, seeing a first toss 7 - on-axis!


TOTAL WIN FOR THE HAND:
$137+$80+$80=$297 plus or minus a couple bucks. That is a $74 win each toss.
Is 10 minutes not enough time to have done that? And nothing is left on the table for the casino as is the case with PL betting strategies.

Alternatively, instead of going for the three Place wins, consider a single Outside Place win with a 5 as the CO-DP; a win with only two tosses - the CO a 5, and the 7 winner - would be $42+$80=$122. Not too shabby as well as even further reducing potential volatility. On the other hand, with any early loss at that single Place win level, it would take more digging-out efforts of a previous loss, than with two or more Place wins.

In this regard of recovering from a loss, a feasible goal is structuring or sizing your bets and number of tosses, to enable one winning hand to off-set each loss: two-three Place scores can do that, as well as simply increasing Lay-Odds, et al.
Using the four-toss example above, the worst loss would have been $180+$30 for $210. The four-toss example wins $297 and the two tosses of the above paragraph win $122.

With the four toss example above, roughly half of profits came from the Do side and half from the Dont. Your style of play and tossing could place more emphasis – more profit – on either side – more Do or more Dont(or both).
Personally, I lean to the Dont side; it finishes each hand more neatly, more easily, and quickly.

Consider whether the Devil's Foray Strategy gives your shooting a time-efficiency-profit advantage over usual PL strategy for an average of more profit with less shooting per hand - and more hands.

Prompting more hands to play, et al:
-$25 tables, fewer players
-faster ending hands
-less salad bar betting to slow the action
-fewer opportunists jumping in for chips
-Dont results equal cold tables and intimidation of some dyed-in-the-wool PL players

When a shooter is getting good results shooting the Don'ts, many times other shooters will stop play to observe or wander off - to simply conserve chips, most of us have seen that– that's good for the Dont player for more hands on shooting. Funny thing is that most times, most players are not too observant, don't realize why the table is so cold and they continue to lose their Do play each time.

There are some casinos which do not allow the tactics of the DF Strategy: don't ask, just play it to see if the Pit Boss does not have a problem.

Last and not least; playing DF, don't neglect to treat your Dealers good.

[London Shooter]

I guess other players should be observant too, should they see a DI's bets morph into a DF style play.

Thanks for the detailed explanation on this play. Not something I'd consider doing myself quite yet at this stage of my craps adventure but certainly of much interest and at least I'll know what to not do if I see somebody ever using such a play live

[bryfromtheharbor]

I like it. This morning I threw a few hands and of course; 5, 5p, 5....

[heavy]

There was MUCH discussion of the DF play back in the day. My pal SIA did a little analysis and came up with a somewhat simpler approach to accomplish the same thing. At the end of the day I find that most systematic methods of play will work most of the time - but on those occasions when they don't work, following the strategy will bleed you dry. With ANY system you really need to play strict attention to win goals and loss limits. Don't be afraid to walk with a small win. It's the greed factor that ultimately kicks your butt.

[rhythm roller]

So Heavy or SIA, what is the simpler approach mentioned? Could you give a short synopsis of that and how it differs and maybe an example? Thanks!

The DF looks like an interesting playing strategy but I will have to work with it at home a while to see if my shooting could make it profitable for me. Thanks for the info and the time to post!

[Operator]

thanks bobby

[heavy]

SIA will have to see if he can remember it. Too much water under the bridge - or Jack Daniels over the tongue - for me to remember.

[heavy]

I, on the other hand, will lay any number I get a Don't bet established on. Once.

[bobbylee]

Bry,
Glad the DF play caught your fancy - I see why.
From your three tosses above - three consecutive 5's. Don't know how you played it.
These would have been my results - presuming an agreeable 7:

1. $30 WOTCO PLace 5 wins $42.
2.Repeating the DP 5 is a $5 win: The DP 5 loses $30 and the Place 5 wins $35.(shooter keeps the dice)
The PL players are giving you lots of High-5's by now - only one toss to the first point - yea!.
3, Third toss: the third 5 is the second WOTCO DP and wins another Place $42.
You've avoided a premature 7.

In three tosses, the total win is $89 with more to come - the hand is not finished.

(repeating from before, using $5 DP/DC and $32A works just as well as $30per bet sizing)

Since there have been three consecutive 5's, my next toss would be for the 7win. Although four consecutive 5's does happen, it's a verrry low probability that a fourth 5 would repeat before the 7.
That's what the math sez and so sez your DI tossing.
This sequence is an opportunity to more confidently and quickly, make a final addition.
Since your toss is consistent (three 5's IS Darn consistent) I would expect a 7 within three
tosses for the final $80 addition to the rack - $169 total.
Consistency using one Set extends to consistency using any Set, especially for a much easier 7 result. From experience you know your results going for the 7.

If anyone is looking for their time to toss a 7, the three same results in a row is about as good as any indicator.

Three 5's followed by a 7 win - four tosses - excellent hand! $42 per toss.

Simple and Quick - still within the Fat part of a roll-cycle, ie less risk.

One variation of how the Devil's Strategy can be gamed.

(thanks, Operator and Lucky)