I'd like to start a topic Heavy can update as a single post...

[dork]

if he sees fit. For us newbies. All the "old timers" have played for so long and made their favorite bets repeatedly so much, they don't think about what they've learned and see as "common sense".

There's a subject I've not seen discussed that caused me embarrassment lots of times and I'd slow the game down never understanding my role...

Bets and payoffs. Not Odds/Pass Line/Place betting/Don't/ etc., but what *MY* (next) bet should be if I win, and how much (and just as importantly, "when") I get paid for a winning transaction.

I confused the shit out of myself during our last Biloxi live session because I'd been away from the game for so long I'd forgotten what the payoff should be. It caused me to have to calculate my (next) Odds late, and as I was about to physically lay the chips on the table (without knowing the dice had moved), the shooter double-clutched because my hand was not "held high" (I had my hand inside the pit).

Also, I know I screwed with several players on my end of the table because I was calling and reaching for my bets out of turn. I've probably played on a table with 7+ shooters maybe 6 times in 4 years. I try religiously not to play in a crowd. That feature alone insures that there are maybe 4 players (max) on my side who the dealer has to contend with, and in such a situation, the dealer's much more tolerant of "rude" etiquette which I got away with for a LONG time.

Sooo. Practice by yourself--learn the "times tables" all over again... "what'll my next parlay be on the 9 if it's at $60 now and I win?" etc. learn them all for however many repeaters you can tolerate on whichever number you bet--i.e., Parlay the 4/10 starting with a $10 Place bet--1x, 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x, etc... at any point, what's the amount and action you want to take?

When you get paid, do you know/understand how the sequence of Pay Outs work from the dealer's perspective? I didn't. I've never seen it written. I found out from a long conversation with a cooperative dealer. From memory, here's how it goes:

1. When a number hits, the dealer immediately takes all the losing bets off the table. These losing bets are usually of the one-roll variety. Don'ts and their Odds opposite the "place area" are taken down next.

2. The “contract” bets are paid off, meaning the Come bets are paid sequentially by position, from the stickman to the dealer.

3. Next, the Place bets are now paid off from the stickman to dealer. If you wanna increase your bet, regress, or "same bet" it, now's the time to tell the dealer.

4. Next, all the Hardways and Prop (one-roll) bets are paid off— Hardways, Field, Hops, World, Horn, etc. These are paid off first on the side of the table where the dice landed.

5. When a point is made, the dealers deal with those line bets first.

They take the Don’t Pass first. Then they pay off the Pass Line bets; from the dealer to the stickman.

6. On Seven Out, all Pass Line bets and Odds are removed first. Then the Don’ts and their Odds are paid, then the rest of the working bets are removed.

When it's your turn to be paid off by the dealer, that's the time to tell the dealer what you wanna do with any of your bets.

If I've made a mistake, please correct me.

[DarthNater]

Dork,
Sounds reasonable on the order, as to what your next move should be on the win, a little trick I use (now that I've learned the Heavy Power Presses) is to think in my head what the next move is right after the dealer sets the bet. For instance, I have bet a $18 6 & 8. Heavy just tosses a hard eight, I collect my $21. I know my next move when it hits again is to drop $3 and press it to $42. So, after I rack that $21 winner, I pick up $3 and set it aside ready to go when Heavy bangs another 8. That way I'm quick on the spot to drop the $3......

Think of your next move while waiting for it to happen, its also always positive thinking, too, N8

[dork]

Thanks, N8, that's a great suggestion. I know my numbers out to the 5x parlay now for all the boxes but that's a great tip about assembling the chips as the bet is being set.

[memo]

Dork,

Sage advice from Darth. Just doing that will get you where you want to go. You obviously know all the sequences the dealers make as they go though the hand. Keep your head in it and know each move in advance.

Also keep in mind that the dealer will be anticipating your moves based on what normal press moves are made by the general public....
With that being said...We are not the general public. Our general press moves do not always fall in step with what they usually see. In a way, I like this. It sets you aside, and not in a bad way. 'Drop three dollars and go to 42'. Not normal. The three dollars and the 42...
I still get dealers saying ' that is a new one on me'.
They are used to, press a unit or going to 30. So, be clear...wait for your turn, drop your chips, say, I have three dollars, take my '6' to 42 dollars. If they seem confused, say, 'trust me, it will work'. After that, they will know.

On the 5/9 they seem to get confused at the 35 level. If I say 1 for 50...Many times they will place 50, and give me back the 35. So, clearly dropping a dollar and saying 'same bet', is better. Small nuances, but it makes the game smoother.

Memo

[heavy]

First off, you have to bet within your sevens/risk tolerance levels AND in accordance with your bankroll. Yeah, I use some unusual press moves. The six and eight going from 18 to (drop 3) 42 t- (collect 1) 90 to (collect $15) 180 to (drop 30) 420 to (collect 10) 900 is NOT what the dealers normally see. They're much more likely to see 30 - 60 - 90 (or sometimes 120) - 150 etc with presses in . . . okay unlock your mind . . . single units IF you think of your initial wager as YOUR unit. In this case - a $30 unit. If it hits say "up a unit." You lock up $5 and it goes to 60. Next hit - "same bet." You lock up 70. Next hit "up a unit" and it gets pressed to $90. Next hit "same bet" and collect $105.

This week I've been working with my daughter, Flea, on betting strategies she can use with her bankroll in Vegas this weekend. It starts with PL and Single Odds when she is the shooter - plus Place the six and eight for $12 each. She takes the first two hits on the six and eight then goes "up a unit" on every subsequent hit. On every Pass Line win in a hand she increases her odds one unit - 10 - 15 - 20 - 25 - 30 - 35 . . . up to max odds on a 3.4.5X odds game. He last hand she made five passes before her mom and I had to leave for a dinner engagement. Her total winnings were $211. If she can roll like that and bet like that in Vegas this weekend life will be good.

I'll post some press move tables on the various numbers one of these days, but today I'm up to my ears with last minute stuff before I head to the airport.

Great questions.

[220Inside]

If you're using a press progression like Heavy's, and probably whatever one you're using as well, eventually the cycle gets to a point of where you're adding zeros to the base part of the progression and all the moves fall out from there.

Looking at Heavy's 6/8 and 5/9 progressions:

6/8: 18-42-90-180-420-900... all you need to memorize here are the first 3 moves to 90, the next press to 180 starts the cycle over again by adding a zero to the initial $18 bet. What you need to drop or collect on each of these sequences also scales as well when adding zeros. For example, to go from 14 to 42 in the initial progression, you drop $3. Similarly when you go from $180 to $420, you drop $30.

5/9, more of the same: 15-35-75-150-350-750...again, just need to memorize the first 3 moves of the progression to $75. The next move to $150 is just adding a zero to the initial $15 bet.

[Moe Bettor]

On the subject of possible dealer programming regarding the 6 and 8 I was at $90 on the 8 last morning in Tunica, took $105 and when the 8 hit again I said go to $180. The dealer said, "you mean $120". I said..no. $180 please. Anyway I threw a 3 and came down.

[dork]

Thanks, Guys!

I use an unusual parlay progression on the 5/9 AND the 4/10. They don't repeat, and I've played them out to the "limits" so rarely sometimes they're hard for me to remember--especially when I've been away from the tables for a month or two... I'm thinking to resort to a cheat sheet.

5/9 go 10 24 60 140 330 800

4/10 go 10 30 80 220 600 1080

It confuses the dealers most of the time, too. The math works out, it's just that they rarely encounter those bets so their confirmations slow things down sometimes.

I did some reading and found and like Heavy's 4/10 progression for it's repeatability:

25-50-100-250-500-1000. In my scheme, it's drawback is, it's not accelerating fast enough--in my scheme, I try to keep all the other box number bets at a minimum looking for a "knockout" on one single box number at the cost of a $10 bet--for instance, the 25 starting point is "too rich" for my scheme as a routine starting bet--at a minimum, it would be the 1st parlay for my system. (I think I'll have to resolve for my own psyche two things... the comfort-zone starting bet and whether to "let it ride" or take some payoffs as I progress)

I wish I could find repeatables for the 5/9 at an initial $10, too.

Ya'lls given me a lot to mull. Thank you!

[220Inside]

While I follow Heavy's progressions for the most part, with some minor tweaks at the lower end for my generally more conservative nature, I don't start my 4/10 at $25 either. I start at either 10 or 15 depending on what events took place to get me to expand out to them. From 10, you can go right to 25 on the first hit if you want and rack $2, or go 10-15-25. From 15, go to 25 on the first hit and rack $16. Then you're in Heavy's progression.

I'm in the camp that thinks that one of the keys to success is getting to making medium length hands profitable, so I tend to add in an extra step or two in my progressions to make them a little less aggressive on the lower end. If the hand progresses into one of those lightning strike monsters, then my progressions get more aggressive and begin to look more like Heavy's. I may wind up being a step or two behind on the payouts on those long hands if/when they happen, but I'm also a little less exposed before you get into the bigger payouts.

[skasower]

I may wind up being a step or two behind on the payouts on those long hands if/when they happen, but I'm also a little less exposed before you get into the bigger payouts.

22inside, I like the thinking behind your Heavy modification.

skasower...aka...lucky to toss 10-15 before the devil takes my progression!....

[dork]

dork, you can also find several threads in the archives about the order in which bets are paid.

Thanks, Irish. My Google-fu is weak. I couldn't figure out a satisfactory search parameter for our site. What I typed was what I remember and I thought I'd post it for guys who didn't know.

For anyone to answer--if I got something wrong in the payoff order please lemme know and I'll go back and edit it.

[London Shooter]

Dork, I bumped up a thresd called Return To Basics for you from 2014 where I was asking the same pay-out order question.

[dork]

Thanks, LS! That was a good read. There's lots of other info in that thread, too, but I'm glad to see the confirmation that I remembered my discussion with the dealer correctly.

[AlBTossin]

Dork, I will approach your question from a different angle. There are endless articles and approaches on betting strategies. You just have to practice and see what fits your bankroll, tolerance and skills. If you are not playing frequently at a casino then the actual handling of money along with thinking of your next move is slowing you down. There was one thing that made me more comfortable at the casino when I was not able to go frequently as I am able to now. I purchased a cheap craps felt and used poker chips to make bets as if I was at the casino. This will get you in the routine of handling money and placing your predetermined bet in the come field so it becomes second nature when your a actually at the casino table.

[dork]

Thanks, A.

I didn't mean the original post to be a query about betting schemes. I meant for it to be more of an information/advise post about how to prep for betting and receiving payouts in just the situation you describe, where I as the player haven't drilled the familiarity of sequences to a rote and automatic pattern. Your advice to perform the bet and payoff at home as a drill is a very good suggestion. Thank you.

Maybe it comes across that I'm not set-in-granite on my betting scheme, but that's more a variation (no pun intended) of the day's expectation and experience at the table than reluctance with regard to psychological or financial commitment.