Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Biloxa... Wow, rough day for you. To put you at ease, we have all been there bro, where nothing went right. Could not get my PARR shot to work,,,sr1,sl1 etc.

I ended up learning 2 other shots to have in my arsenal for when that happens. Some people call it Off Axis, but it is NOT off axis. Nonetheless, have different shots available to your arsenal when you play. Or if you play with others, one can use Parr, one use a different shot, mix it up to find whats working.

As far as you woes go, If you are tracking and you see a number gone 18+ rolls when its your time to roll, Lay that number for the CO roll. Say the 9 is gone 22 rolls when its your turn and you and the table have been struggling. Fire a DP of $25. Say point is a 5. Now you can play out this senario a little here. PB the 6 and 8 for $12 each. You have the Beruma Triangle at work. a DP of $25 and two PB of $12ea. Your nine is still optional. You could collect on a few hits of 6/8 then pull them down with notion that 'If 7 comes, i won $28 and lost $25, plus won $30 on my No 9 bet. Once a number gets lost (24 rolls) you should be able to grab 3 wins from seven outs to CO sevens. If your in that 'Window", use it to your advantage.

Only advice on Lost #'s is be careful when a Lost # is being Laid when playing with 3-4 D.I's at the table s D.I's will skew these results. I had a 4 once gone 72 rolls and in 96 rolls it was only hit twice, both my me and i picked myself off twice on 2 different rolls. The 73rd roll and the 97 roll both events separate shots, but I skewed those numbers. So know your situation. You don't know how many times Howards and Koi have picked off my Lay bets, but i can tell you stories how many times it has survived too.

On senario above, once you collected on a few of the Triangle bets, you could now PB the point for $25 and continue the roll. If a 7 out, its a push on DP but win lay 9. If a 5 rolled win $35 PB point but lose $25 DP. Now you can reduce and go on PL say for $10 setting for sevens. or go back in same senario on DP. Use the triangle. Point 8, use 5-6 for triangle play. If you seven out and next shooter, that Lay 9 is pretty strong on next shooter.

GL bro

VDC

VegasDiceController wrote: Fire a DP of $25. Say point is a 5. Now you can play out this senario a little here. PB the 6 and 8 for $12 each. You have the Beruma Triangle at work. a DP of $25 and two PB of $12ea. Your nine is still optional.
VDC

hey VegasDiceController,
thanks for support,
I added Bermuda Triangle to my list.

The last thing I'll add is for the rest of the readers' benefit. Since you were only betting the pass line when you were shooting the dice then you get a pass on this one.

Craps "experts" basically fall into two camps. The math camp that says pass line with odds and two or three come bets with odds (or the opposite on the Don'ts) is the best way to play. Then you get what I'll call the "old timers" camp that believes the Pass and Come bets are among the worst on the table because they are contract bets you cannot control. These guys would rather bypass the Come Out and then Place the numbers they want.

I understand the math and fall back on it sometimes - particularly during hot hands. But by and large I'm in the old timer's camp. Pick the numbers you want. Bet them how you want. Turn them off or take them down when you want.

Heavy wrote: Okay, a question/recommendation for you. Have you read Sam Grafstein's "The Dice Doctor" and John Patrick's "Advanced Craps?" They are, IMHO, must-reads for every serious craps player. You can get The Dice Doctor "used" from Amazon for .95 cents plus shipping. A used copy of the Lyle Stuart edition John's book runs anywhere from $20 - $60. But the original self-published version is available on Amazon for under $10. That's the version you want because Stuart edited out many pages of content from the original. It's the book with the green cover.
As far as books on dice influencing are concerned - if you want read a series of books that takes modern dice control from its infancy to today look for Dice Control for Casino Craps by Yuri Kononenko. Follow that with Sharpshooter's Get the Edge at Casino Craps. Top it all off with Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible.

hey Heavy, thanks a lot for the list. MP's Bible is my bible. I've read several chapters of the Sam Grafstein's book online and read everything I could find on the forums about his systems. But I'll buy his book anyway. I am very familiar with Sharpshooter's stuff and will buy his book too. Yuri Kononenko is the only one I am not very familiar with. By the way, I am saving money and work on my vacation time to attend one of your seminars. The idea was to win some money playing craps and then use it to pay for your lessons. I was up close to $600 when that wild variance hit me. I was always sure that the pass line bet was the safest one until now, and it worked that way to me, hm... until now. So I am just trying to find a way to hedge when on a new table or if not sure what's going on with my throw.

I realise that the house edge will get to you no matter what, unless you have some kind of advantage. You may not believe me, but on my home rig I toss 52% on-axis, 5% double pitch and 15% front face hits. That translates to some nice SRR and average points and hand length. I do about 1000-2000 rolls per month and I started getting those numbers about 2 month ago, so it's roughly 3000-4000 recorded rolls in last two months, a solid statistical base, not just a lucky roll or two.

The problem is when I go to a casino, it's all over the place - some long hands for quite some time, than extra short hands for extended periods. So, I never know which way it will go. I just start feeling like my arms grow out of my ass. It adds to my live action anxiety and installs a fear of betting into my mind. So I am just looking for some betting system that will give me a piece of mind and let me concentrate on my shooting while giving an option to profit on the long hands.

Let's take my last fiasco as example. I lost 20 units - $200 on 25 hands (100 rolls total), betting the pass line only. If I used a simple doey-don'ts $10/$11, I would lose in theory 1.41% vig on $21, my total for each roll. That's about $0.30 per roll times 100 rolls equals to $30 total loss to the house edge. I'd rather pay that $30 table rent to find out out where I stand than lose $200.

Now, the system #2 from my list, my favorite, No Hit Can Miss. $12 DP, $12 PB on the eight (or six, doesn't matter, just stick to the same number), go up $6 each time you hit your place bet. I figure that would be 1.41% house edge on DP, 1.51% on placing the six or eight. (1.14+1.51)/2=1.455% vig on $24, my total bet. Comes to about $0.35 per roll lost to the house edge, about $35 for 100 rolls. Not too bad comparing to $200 I lost. The beauty of this one, as I see it, if you get short hands - you break even minus the house edge; if you start producing longer hands, you can increase your place bets and spread them around of course.

I’ll definitely try No Hit Can Miss on my next trip to the casino (soon) and will post the results here.

I'll tell you the same thing I've told other players for years. There is a ton of information on dice control on the Internet. Some of it is good. Some not so good. Almost all of the videos you'll see on YouTube are garbage. But you can learn everything you need to know to be a consistent winner at craps without doing a live class. So learn everything you can for free. Read this forum and MP's board. Ignore the rest of them. Get the books I mentioned on the cheap - and I suggest you read them in the order presented. When you read Patrick's book you'll find a strategy that rings true to you - most likely some sort of regression strategy. I used to play a lot of $66 inside for one hit, then down to $22 inside. Collect once then go up and out from there. You'll figure out your own twists. Find one that works for you and wear it out. THEN, when you've done all that you can do without spending a lot of money, you can consider doing a class. Hopefully we can help you take it to the next level, but you never know. Playing craps successfully takes several things. Patrick will tell you Knowledge of the Game, Conservative Strategy, Bankroll, Money Management and Discipline. I'll add Dice Influence to that list. It takes time but you'll get there.

Biloxa, the house edge for a multi roll bet like passline you need to look at diierently. Wizardofodds does a table which goes through all of this e.g passline is 1.41% per bet resolved but takes 3.38 rolls on average for a decision, so as a "per roll" basis this comes out at 0.42%.

London Shooter wrote:Biloxa, the house edge for a multi roll bet like passline you need to look at diierently. Wizardofodds does a table which goes through all of this e.g passline is 1.41% per bet resolved but takes 3.38 rolls on average for a decision, so as a "per roll" basis this comes out at 0.42%.

hey London Shooter, it's even better. That would bring my estimated house edge loss way down to about $12-14 vs $200 I lost betting the pass line, making it even better (cheaper) hedge.

I checked my old casino records, and this is my typical casino session:

4,5,10H,6,5,9,8,10H,4P,3,5,9,8,8,2,10H,6,6,7Out
10H,8,7Out
10,7Out
7,12,9,7Out
12,3,10H,7Out
7,4,12,8,11,8H,6,6,10,10H,5,8,8,4P,9,7Out

As you see I produced 2 fairly long hands (19,16) and four very short hands in between.
If I've bet the pass line only, I would’ve lost 6 units on that session. According to WizardOfOdds (thanks London Shooter) I should’ve lost 0.42% x 48 rolls = around 2 units. Of course, one can say, hey, it’s only a single session! I can assure you, this one is very typical for me.

That’s a lot for such seemingly safe bet, so I am assuming I am influencing the outcomes here. To bad, I am never sure which way. The hands are either too short or long, not much else. I ran this session through No Hit Can Miss system, and this is what I got:

DP $12 ea = +$48 total win
PB the eight for $12, go up $6 on each hit = +$55
Total win: $103 (up 10 units) - that’s much better than 6 unit loss I would have on this session otherwise. What’s more, on short hands I didn’t lose anything at all, it was a wash, and on the long ones I made some nice profit.

I don’t care if I am giving up some profits to protect my bottom line. At this point I prefer to lose as little as possible versus winning a lot on good hands and then getting your butt kicked on the bad ones. I’ve tried MP’s (no disrespect) $204 across on this session and it produced -$454 loss. Again, that’s my results, and somebody else might get different outcomes.

Sure, it’s one session only. I’ll try No Hit Can Miss the next time I play in a live casino environment and we’ll see what happens.

OK, just got back from my casino trip. I gave No Hit Can Miss hedging system some extensive testing and here’s what I figured.

1. When I use my new grip and throwing style I practised lately, I double pitch like crazy in a live casino situation.

2. Strangely enough, that same grip/toss combo gives me 52%+ on axis and below 5% double pitch results on my home rig. So, I am assuming my home setup doesn’t match the bounce and rubber wall characteristics in real casinos, and I decided to rebuild it to match the real casino tables better.

3. After I started using No Hit Can Miss wash betting, I relaxed and could pay more attention to my throw. So, I figured what causes the double pitch (seven outs) in those particular situations. I exaggerated the “bad” things and that helped me to eliminated the long hands completely and produce very consistent and quick seven outs. (I don’t concentrate on specifics here as they will be different for other people).

4. It is much easier (at least for me) to produce quick seven outs versus consistent long hands, using that specific grip and toss style. The last half of my trip I stopped placing the eight and simply played the don’ts. It worked like a charm, I didn’t lose a single don’t pass bet EVER.

5. To prove to myself it was no coincidence, I changed my grip and dice set once per casino. Actually, I haven’t use any dice set at all on those, just tossed the dice same way the stick pushed them to me, using a regular three finger over hand parr throw from the table bed. The results were very interesting. I would get a long hand right away. On the first try I got a 19 roll hand, 3 points made, and the other two were 13 and 16 rolls, 1 and 2 points made. LOL (Those hands are not included)

Below are my stats and actual rolls from the trip (I don’t bet the hardways, so I didn’t mark them).

Total rolls: 75
Total hands: 15
Points made: 1!
Average points made: 0.067 (vs 0.68 for RR, 90% edge over RR if betting the don’ts)
Average hand length: 5 (vs 9.5 for RR, 45% edge over RR if betting the don’ts)
SRR: 3.95 (vs 6 for RR, 36% edge over RR if betting the don’ts)

Casino 1 Session 1:
7,6,7
2,9,7
10,5,7

Casino 2:
7,8,9,4,9,5,7

Casino 1 Session 2, after 1 hr break:
6,4,7
9,6,5,11,8,6P,10,7
6,7
2,7,8,10,4,7
9,2,6,5,10,3,6,7

Casino 3:
9,5,8,6,4,7
2,9,8,12,3,4,7
3,9,2,7

Casino 2 Session 2, after 1 hr break:
4,10,5,8,7
7,9,11,6,3,7
6,3,4,7

Biloxa...

As I am a Don't shooter and player I would say great shooting. Throw in a Don't Come once in a while and you are golden. I would take those hands all day, every day! The other side of the dice, I make 2 points and switch over to the pass line, BAM 7 Out! I simply try to grind out a small win of $40-$80 and walk.

Here is a play that I am slowly attempting (might take some heat for this play from the forum members) $10 Don't Pass. Set the point then $12 (6), $12 (8) and $7 in the field. I try to get 3 hits. If I toss a 5 and lose my $7 field I replace it and I keep tossing till I get $21. Now I take down my place/field bets and attempt to bring the 7.

How do I handle odds on the Don't Pass? I guess it depends on how I am shooting. I toss a few hands with no odds and no place bets. Just a $10 flat bet. I suppose I go on feel more than anything. When I do take odds it looks like this. If the point is 6/8 $12 odds, if it is 5/9 $15 odds, if 4/10 $20 odds. I should add that my job allows me to play maybe twice a week in the morning just as the table opens at 8:30am. So an empty table works well.

Just my thoughts. Again, I like your numbers.

Best of luck,
DSS47

hey DSS47, thanks for support.

I only care about one kind of heat - heat from the pit. LOL

I guess what you suggest is some kind of iron cross system. I practiced a similar system on my home rig, and it worked well for me. The thing is whatever I hit at home, I get the exact opposite in casinos, so I need to rebuild my home rig and practice more on real tables. Also, the places where I can play now pay double on 12, and that's 5.56% house edge. So, I don't bet the field anywhere except Las Vegas (Downtown and some Strip casinos that pay triple on 12).
That turns the field bet into a moderate house edge bet with 2.76% house edge. Compare that to 4% house edge for place bets on 5 & 9 and 6.67% for place bets on 4 & 10 (OK, 4.76% if you buy 4 or 10 for at least $20) and it's getting much clearer what bets are the sucker bets.

I am curious, why $7 on the field and why $21 win goal for the field bet?

By the way, as you are a dark side rider, some interesting story from my last trip. A don'ts player, who was standing next to me, was doing OK. Then it is his turn to shoot. He doubles his bet, takes the dice and goes like that - 6,6,4,4,4,4,8,5,8. I swear to God! Then he passes the dice to me, almost crying - he doubled his bet after every loss, so his rack is empty now. I get lucky and produce a quick seven out, recovering about 2/3 of what I lost on his GREAT shooting (I was betting the don'ts too). LOL

Biloxa -again back to the "per roll" basis and the 5&9 or 4&10 compare favourably to the field in terms of HE. Don't forget you are getting multiple goes for you place bets whereas your field 2.78% is given away on average each roll.

hey London Shooter, you got me thinking.

I've checked the tables and the field bet is 2.78% per bet made while PB 5&9 is 4% per bet made, so go figure. I guess they just work in a different way (if you hit a seven, you knock ALL your place bets off at once while in the same situation you only loose 1 field bet ), so the final house edge for those bets in my book would be the house edge per bet made and this is how one can compare those bets. I look at it this way: when you place the nine for $10 the house expects you to lose $0.04 on every $10 you bet; when you bet the field for $10, the house expects you to lose $0.0278 on each $10 you bet (if the payout on the 12 is 3:1). And in my book a new place bet starts when you either loose $10 or win $10 (or whatever, based on the number), it just takes it longer to win or lose, compared with the filed.

Anyways, I think if they pay triple for the 12, then the field bet is pretty reasonable bet, especially if you toss like 52%+ on axis confirmed in live casino play. Just use S6 set and off you go. I personally feel more comfortable risking just 1 bet on every roll versus spreading 6 bets across the box numbers and exposing all of them to that sneaky seven. And considering the hands I was getting lately, I am sure glad I haven't place bet anything. I ran my rolls through a simulation and the place bets lost big time, while the field was doing just fine. Actually, I've got about 5% edge on the field bet, up two units for the session.

Biloxa..

Yes the play I mentioned is a "water downed" version of the Iron Cross. To clarify, I did not explain very well the payouts. The $12 (6 and 8) pays $14. I have $7 in the field so I would net $7 on each roll of the dice unless the 5 shows (I lose) or the 2/12 pays double. I am looking for a total win of $21 (not just field wins). My apologies. I try to actually toss field #'s and I might even parlay the winning field bet into a $28 win. BTW, it really is a horrible bet. For sure I do not make this play as my mainstay of betting.

I missed it today. Just 3 players at the table. I am shooting from SR1. I am right handed but feel comfortable shooting lefty. $10 on the DP. Toss, "7 winner pass line winner, take the ..." you guys know the rest. Reload the don't pass with $10. Toss 4. At this point I lay $20 to win $10. I proceed to toss about 8-10 numbers before I make my point of 7 for the win. Woulda, coulda, and shoulda made my water downed IC bet for a little bigger win. Oh well it was still a small win and built my confidence for the rest of the session. This was my first hand of the day.

Today I had 2 sessions. My buy-in is $300. Played almost all darkside (DP and DC) for about 45 mis before lunch. Color coming in $370. Plus a $5 coupon at the cage.
2nd session was right after lunch. My buy-in $300. A few more players at the table. I take last spot next to dealer. Played for about 30 mins. Color coming in $350.

With regard to your last comment about the don't shooter. I feel the pain. However, I absolutely do NOT double my bet. I try to stay the course. But it's really tough sometimes.

Nothing like tossing 3 comeout 7's in a row. Then proceed to make 2-3 points. All from the don't pass line!!! OUCH!

Regardless...I love shooting the dice.

Best of luck,

THE DARKSIDE IS ALIVE AND WELL.

However, I absolutely do NOT double my bet. I try to stay the course. But it's really tough sometimes.

Right on, right on. I ran another sym on my hands from another trip where I hit more points. If defies the logic, but starting let's say with a four unit don't pass bet and reducing It 50% after each point hit, then starting again at four units on the next hand gave me much better results and obviously less pain and stress associated with increasing your bets on each loss.

I still prefer to look at the "per roll" edge it terms of how good (or more correctly, least bad) a bet can be. I'm not dismissing the field entirely.

I sometimes play it myself on the come-out roll if using crossed 6s set from which I can throw a lot of trash, however I just will not play it at all if it doesn't pay triple on the 12. Then it is akin to playing roulette on a double zero table and there are far better bets to be had on a craps table.

I think the other thing with the field is you see a lot of serial bettors, $10 per roll every roll. This soon grinds them down, even when it pays triple on the 12.

London Shooter wrote: I'm not dismissing the field entirely.
I sometimes play it myself on the come-out roll if using crossed 6s set from which I can throw a lot of trash, however I just will not play it at all if it doesn't pay triple on the 12.

To tell you the truth, I forgot when was the last time I bet the field, probably when I was in Vegas - 6 months ago
Don't have much vacation time left, so the East Cost is my only choice as of now, and that's 5.56% house edge for the field bet.
I am thinking about using it on CO though, as a lowest house edge hedge for the CO 12 (a push if one bets the don'ts) I hit a lot of those on come-outs as I aim for the trash numbers. Just came back from AC - I don't want to overload the post with my last hands from that trip, but here are the stats:

SRR - 5.15 (worth than the previous trip, but I played some new for me tables, had to figure them out, hence a bit longer hands on those)
Total come-outs: 23
Total tables/casinos: 4
Come-out craps: 12 x 4 times, 2 x 2 times, 3 x 2 times
Come-out fields: 7

So, I hit 8 crap numbers and 7 other field numbers on come-outs (15 out of 23 total). And 6 of those were (at least) double paying 12 & 2. It looks to me like in my case betting the field on come-outs makes sense, and it reduces volatility as well.

I have practiced controlled shooting for about six months on a homemade setup. If the dice bounce at the casino, I found lowering my trajectory works to combat that. Like many I tried all different grips and settled on a two fingers back, thumb hold on the front and the fourth finger holds the side of the dice. This keeps the axis for me. If I begin slow off the table, almost no backswing,and release..all slowly with enough height and forward momentum it works best for me. Also I set the dice starting with a V3, 5 and 1 showing towards me. Then I roll the right hand three to to the right producing a six. This seems to eliminate 3's and 7's. This produces, often, inside and outside numbers. No matter. I only place 4,5,9,10 and set the dice
to produce those since they pay more for less. The set I use there is a 2V. You have 4 on top and 6 and 4 on the facing side. I go two rolls and off starting the place bets and pass line odds at the fourth roll. If I'm off that day..the seven will show fast and I'll lose little. My place bet is always the lowest amt. I use regression. I also play the don't side by table observance. If I enter the casino and people are leaving a table..I'm in on the don't.

When it ain't fun......run or.........transition to the darkside.