Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

I've sort of looked in on this thread with interest as the day stretched on. Been way too busy to get into the conversation and still don't have time to get deep into it. I'm curious as to whether you are suggesting putting all of the numbers across, putting only select numbers that you know you tend to have an edge on, or putting the number after the point rolls.

I'll also suggest that - while you may not be setting for a seven when you are using come bets - the come bet does provide a small hedge effect against the seven.

My preference, if you are talking about putting a bunch of numbers from the get-go, would be to play a place to come strategy. That way I don't lose control of my initial bets. I'd much rather have a $6 place bet on the six or eight than a $5 put bet in a $5 game. If you're playing a 3x4x5x odds game then I'm really going to have a hard time with the concept of put betting or come betting. A five dollar come bet or put bet on the six with twenty-five odds pays what? About the same amount as a $30 Place bet? Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course, if you're betting at higher levels then it makes a difference.

I've seen guys in casinos that offer 100X odds put all the numbers for $5 each with $500 odds. Hmmm. It occurs to me that that action is about 20X my session buy in in a $5 game these days. Of course, I'm just playing for peanuts.

Here’s my take on this.

First a Put Bet with sufficient odds lowers the horrendous HA.

Second, it is still a contract bet and while the odds can be manipulated within the allowed parameters you will still lose money if it doesn’t win.

Third, I accept DI skill but I know people can shoot guns too. Are they all equal? No. Some are more accurate/skilled than others; some can maintain their focus longer while others tire quicker from the mental and physical requirements. There isn’t one large inclusive DI group and level.

Fourth, one should not assume that because some level of DI skill is involved one can safely use Put Bets with sufficiently high odds to remove the foul odor and ignore the very real possibility of an unintended CO 7. Take this added risk to receive true odds vs. Placing? Win a little more vs. lose it all? You better be darn sure of your ability because it will be a costly error.

Fifth, things change. They change during a hand and while the same shooter is still shooting. It could be a spouse or girlfriend tapping the shooter, a waitress asking the shooter if they want a drink, someone buying in late, hands in the pit, someone squeezing in and cramping the shooter, late bets, fast movements that distract the shooter and break focus or many other distractions. Regardless of how confident you are making the initial Put Bets you may feel different 2 minutes later. Pull the odds but the flat bets remain to either win or lose. Console yourself that a loss is such a small amount compared to what you could of lost…..it still is a loss. Any win is like a left handed compliment. Yes the bet won but now you’re thinking I should have left the odds up. The bug is now in your head and eating away making you second guess your actions. Doubt is a mind killer. Is it worth it the extra risk?

Sixth, I prefer to maintain complete control over my money at all times. If that costs me a little extra on a win so be it. If something makes me suddenly unsure I’m all off or down and nothing is risked or lost.

That’s it for me.

Kelph

Kelph wrote: I accept DI skill but I know people can shoot guns too. Are they all equal?

No.

Some are more accurate/skilled than others; some can maintain their focus longer while others tire quicker from the mental and physical requirements.
There isn’t one large inclusive DI group and level.

That was a well made point, Kelph.

MP

Mad Professor said: "That was a well made point, Kelph."

I agree!

Consultant,

My take on this is that you are not promoting any kind of bet at all
You have opened a discussion that contrasts two similar bets...
We have discussed the odds impact in the past, but your schematic that highlights the parity with place bets makes it clear.

The surprise for me was the peak under the tent....
Yes, the come is a partial hedge for the unexpected seven, but...If we are successful at avoiding the seven, then the come bet is inefficient, and one of its strengths is negated by our own efforts. Maybe one could modify Heavy's 'place to come', with a 'place to put'.

Memo

So would any casino allow a Doey/Don't Put? Can't see any reason why they would. Basically you'd have a Place (well, almost) paying true odds.

OK, came right back to edit. Can't make a Don't after the fact......duh. Sorry for the mental lapse.

Kelph

Yes I believe in DI.

however, I don't make come bets and I do set for the seven on come out.

I'm not sure whether those questions apply to this discussion though.

As others said some DI throwers are better than others and you have to bet as you are comfortable with. I'm generally a red chip player, so if I was betting the type of bankroll Heavy talks about and I have seen at the tables, I might use put bets myself.

Noah

I'm a little surprised by the length of this thread. I thought it was a given that the reason to use a Put bet was simply to take advantage of Odds multiples that are unusually large when you would otherwise make a Place bet. The purpose being to get a higher ROI per dollar bet on the chosen box number while keeping the ability to chose which number you will bet.

However, it is the first time I have seen the Put but called a "contract" bet. I had always thought that they could be removed because they hadn't ”enjoyed" an advantage on their "come-out" roll. Anyone care to confirm that?


-DC

DC,

If you walk up to a table after the Point has been established and plunk down a PL bet backed by odds have they ever allowed you to pull back on the PL? Odds yes, PL no. The flat bet remains because it is still a contract bet whether or not you had the benefit of the CO roll.

45% of Do wins occur on the CO (random dice) so if you've missed or by-passed it and choose to play the Line or Put Comes the casino is happy to oblige.

Note that you can't do the same with a Don't bet.

Kelph

Playing mostly in Las Vegas, where most of the casinos don't offer better thant 3-4-5X Odds, I have made very few Put bets. So, making them then trying to take them down is rarer still (never).

Now I know, Thanks.

-DC