Working on the Come Out (WOTC)

[heavy]

Okay, let's consider some different scenarios as we drag out this old but popular topic - working your bets on the Come Out.

First off - do you work your bets on the Come Out? If so (and yes, Maddog, this applies to you), how successful have you been with it? Do you work them on every come-out or only when you are the shooter? Have you tracked results on yourself versus other shooters if you've gone that route?

Next - let's look at those different scenarios.

1. You are the shooter and have made one pass already. You have $110 action on the layout in place action and come bets plus odds. Do you work your place bets? Do you work the odds on your come bets?

2. Your partner - also a controlled shooter - has the dice. How do you handle your action on his hand? Do you work your bets on the come out or not?

3. Randy has the dice. Same questions. Working or off?

Let's have a little explanation that goes beyond the old "dice don't have a memory" discussion and "it's just another roll of the dice."

[$5Bill]

Since I started practicing with Americraps last year, we came up with a strategy that had me WOTCO but only when I had the dice. I didn't want to waste a perfectly good roll but what I found was that when I knocked myself off my place bet numbers, I would replace them and try again. That can get pretty expensive when you're tossing three 7's in a row on the come-out. So in the middle of January of this year I stopped doing that (wotco). It has worked out great so far. Now when I throw three (or whatever) come-out 7's like I did yesterday, I collect on the pass line instead of replacing my place bets.

And when I toss a 7-out, I only lose my place bets once. Plus I may have had some hits in the meantime to lessen the amount of the loss on my place bets. After 4 hits I take everything down and finish out my roll. What a difference that has made in my play. Since I have dropped the wotco, I have been doing pretty good at the casino.


$5Bill

[kenb]

Working Place bets is one thing. If you've got the stomach and bank roll, and the casino allows them, Put bets! Kinda like messing with futures in the oil or gold markets if the odds are working, too.

[Maddog]

There are two criteria that I use to determine if I will Work on the Come-Out;

First I have to feel that my shooting is “on”. Not just ok, or good, but spot on, like I own the table.

Second is that I have to have the place bets pressed up to a reasonable level. A level where a hit on the place bet outweighs the pay off from naturals or a pressed horn bet.

I remember one session I played with Irishsetter over in Reno playing on a $2 table with 10x odds and I was usually putting $2 on the line with $5-$10 in odds. As the game progressed, I was really dialing in and just nailing the table and kept hitting hardway 6 and 8’s. Starting my place action from $22 inside I had power pressed the six and eight to the $30 level each.

At that point I started working the come-out, and maintained my permutation of the 3V set, looking to continue the hand in an anti-seven mode. I figured a $35 payoff on the place 8 would outstrip any $2 PL naturals or the more risky horn presses that I might achieve by switching to a Seven-Strong dice set. So I maintained my 3V set and in my mind convinced myself that this was just another point-cycle roll.

The dice don’t know if it is a come-out or a point-cycle, for them it is just another toss. It is our mental state that needs to be managed to just toss another good toss and deal with the probabilities of our controlled throw.

Of course if the hand goes on for a while, and a few passes have been completed, then it is often nice to take a “free throw” on a come-out where you are not WOTCO and that you know won’t hurt your place action.

My basic rules (always allow for flexibility):

~ Shooting has to be very good.

~ I will not be WOTCO to start a hand.

~ Place bets pressed up to a reasonable level, before beginning to WOTCO.

~ If I’m pressed up and coming-out with my bets WOTCO, and I toss a 7 natural, I will NOT re-set my bets, but instead start over as a new hand (i.e. no place bets, and come-bets also just came down).

~ Do Not WOTCO on Randy (again, the dice don't know the difference, but this is the natural flow of the game and no reason to intentional and unnaturally expose bets to negative expectation)

~ Do Not WOTCO on other Controlled Shooters, unless you really, really, really, shoot with them often an know their patterns.

~ Always work Come-Bet Odds on the come-out. (just mathematically correct)

~~~~

An interesting aspect of working on the come out for the DI who face-sets his dice is that he is increasing the probability of setting certain numbers as the point, which is followed by a similar increase in the probability that he will repeat the number during the point cycle.

This is true even if the DI is quick-setting on a specific axial set, but I believe the maximum benefit is gained when the DI sets to a consistent specific face-set.

I’m not sure that the DI who is randomly quick-setting to seven avoidance axial sets gains as much advantage in this regard.

Shooters who like to “make-the-point” should seriously consider maintaining a consistent set for both the come-out cycle and the point cycle as this strategy works in their favor and adding the WOTCO betting play to the mix adds an additional opportunity.

[Americraps]

I have some kind of mental block going where I throw 7s when I'm working on the come out.

[tconley]

Does anyone use a $41 no 4 and no 10 hedge while placing the inside for $44? I understand you can also add a $10 place on the 4&10 to hedge the no 4&10. JP mentions this strategy for 2 hits and down. Just curious if anyone has used this type of hedging, and if it was worth it.
Tom

I guess I should have mentioned the above bet "working" on the c/o

[al_falcons]

I have some kind of mental block going where I throw 7s when I'm working on the come out.

Does that stop you from doing it? Maybe not?

I throw way too many 7's on the come out to warrant any attempt at WOTC plays when I shoot. I would never consider it on any random shooter and probably not anyone else either for that matter. I like the "game within a game" and making come out bets if I know the shooter's habits. Or if I am setting the dice in the P6 configuration, I will throw more horn numbers and 7's so I bet the world on the come out and try to make some extra cash there.

[Americraps]

Hi Al-Falcons- Does that stop me from doing it? It probably should, but I'd like to train my mind to ignore the co voodoo.

[DeadCat]

FWIW, I usually use a 3V and bet the 6 & 8 regardless of the point. When I feel that I am shooting well (producing 6's and 8's) I bet them on the come-out as well.

When playing a $5 game, and shooting well, I often bet $12 on the PL and $6 on both the 6 and 8. This makes an accidental come-out 7 a push. if a 6 or 8 is set I take the profit and move the place bet that hit onto the other number, making it look like $12 with $12 on the PL.

From there you can add odds, or build them up from winnings on the 'sister' number when it hits or just leave them both at $12. that is up to you and should be changed to reflect your own tendencies or risk tolerance.

The key point is that you can have WOTCO bets and not risk them to the errant c-o 7.

-DC