ALL/TALL/SMALL[ATS]

[kumar]

Would be interested in hearing how players approach this bet.

I was at the Beau Rivage last week with 8 players and it was a pleasant surprise to play a session on the same table as Parsons

In the 3 days I played, other than me hitting the ATS, I did not see a single shooter hit either side.

In 3 days one roughly plays 150 shooters,if one goes 5/5/5 on each shooter and does not collect at all that is a $2250 loss for the trip on the ATS bet.
A friend of mine,who has since passed away, analyzed data over many/many sessions and concluded that controlled shooters hit one side 23% of the time and both sides 12% of the time.The results for a random shooter was about half that of the controlled shooter.Does this data match any analysis you may have done?

[AllahPena]

If I could only book the ATS bet I would. It's a bad bet with a huge house edge yet I still play it but treat it as such.

[Parson]

Well i once figured i needed one hit in 60 attempts, that on myself or qualified shooters. I rarely place it on randies.

[220Inside]

Well i once figured i needed one hit in 60 attempts, that on myself or qualified shooters. I rarely place it on randies.

I'm with Parson here. I only play it on myself and qualified known shooters. Other than that I do not bet it, but still root for those times that the randy hits part of it.

[grinder2017]

Thank You Kumar for asking the question. I have wondered if anyone knows or could tell me if they were ahead or down on the bet. It has such a house edge at 150 -1 like 20%. By far the highest house edge on the dice table (unless you can find a fire bet) but maybe not the worst bet in the casino I don't know what the house edge is on on penny slots at some remote casinos. I feel like I have a slight edge at the craps table with the work and studying I have done, but not to sound like Irish (remember him?) I don't think that I can over come the house edge. I talked with a dealer a couple years ago and he said when players started making ATS bets for the dealers their tips really dropped. My December 3 night trip to Biloxi I never saw it hit. In January it hit three times and I was one of those. I rarely bet it since it went to 150-1 from 175-1. You have just about as good of a chance as seeing a unicorn run through the casino as me betting it but never say never!
Cheers
Grinder

[House of Orange]

The answer involves Bonetracker and a set of roll results from that particular table.

[heavy]

I have a student who's regular buy in at the table is $100 or less. Her play is $5-$10-$5 on the ATS on herself only. $15 on the PL. No odds. Essentially she has three shots a night at hitting one side or another or the whole thing. Night before last she hit the full monte and played on a little more before cashing out for $2100. Not saying she does that all the time, but she's playing it more or less like a lot of folks approach a slot machine. Toss in a hundred bucks and hope you hit the jackpot.

I now another gal who buys in for $2000 and plays pretty much the same way, but she plays $25 on the PL with anywhere from $50 - $100 odds and $30 - $60 on the Six and Eight plus $25-$25-$25. She never presses. She just sits at the table and orders a drink and smokes and drinks, waiting for someone to hit the ATS (she bets it on everyone). Now, she is a high limit slow player who is very successful at slots, and she does fairly well with her ATS strategy as well. Weird, huh?

Personally, I bet it mostly as an entertainment bet with a limited percentage of my bankroll. On select randies I'll bet the table minimum. On DI's I'll bet a little more. On KNOWN DI's I'll bet bigger still. It is what it is. I'm looking for a lightning strike. I've played sessions in Shreveport/Bossier where four of us have hit one side or the other or the full ATS in one lap around the table - and other sessions where the same four of us have gone two days without hitting squat. It's feast or famine, proving once again that volatility impacts even the best of us - in good ways and bad ways.

[kumar]

great inputs;thank you
the sense i get is it is a long shot bet,fun bet,no scientific way to approach it and one has a better chance with controlled shooters

[House of Orange]

Au contraire, there is a scientific way, consult the Bonetracker guru's

[Big O]

,no scientific way to approach it

actually with the new bone tracker and coaster sets some are coming around to the idea there is a way to attack the bet. Still a long shot but with improved chances to get hits.

[chuckindice]

My local casino pays 35:1 for Small/Tall ... and 174:1 for the All. I have seen the 30:1 and 150:1 at other casinos. Is that the most-common payout? Did I just luck out with my local casino offering the higher payout?

I usually play $5 (2/1/2) on other shooters ... and bump it to $10 (4/2/4) on myself. I enjoy the fun of having the action on every shooter. Since I usually play a Don't Pass when I'm not shooting, I cover the $5 ATS with my dark side play (Come Out 7 still loses, just $5 more.)

- Chris

[House of Orange]

Yes Cris, you are a lucky man at 35-1!

[DarthNater]

Au contraire, there is a scientific way, consult the Bonetracker guru's

I won't say science, but I will say Analytics. Then again paraphrasing Maddog who enjoyed saying "some days a DI gets something to work". Plus what Heavy said, some days its happening and some days it ain't....

I think a skilled DI can improve their chances as I've said on other ATS-centric threads here on the Forum - you need an attack profile - some strong set knowledge and axial control and a bit of luck also can help as there is always those wacky days when you need a 2 and keep getting 12s.

I've mentioned attack plan or profile in another thread and will have to search for that and paste a link in here. I have several ATS tools under development but we have other priorities for Bonetracker. We know the predominant numbers precluding an ATS win are the horn numbers, yeah we all have stories where we got all the horns and couldn't make an eight, but most times it boils down to a horn. In my sniping class we look at particular numbers. We know a random tosser can expect 20 2s in 720 tosses, so knowing what your best Coaster set for a 2 is the first step. It's the same thinking for 12, but we'll talk 2 here. In all the books of transposed rolls I've seen the biggest number of 2s has been 62 hits; with a similar transpose of 62 hits for 12. Think about that as that's 1 in 11.61 average, that's still 12 tries with the right set, which as I recall was a crossed sixes set.

If you look at the Heavy Axial Dice set chart, the reference crossed six has all 10 numbers on axis. So for me its knowing your axial tendencies and having those aces where they make 2s or 12s, not 1-6 or 6-1 as that ends your pursuit.

Yeah, its complicated, many DI I know can exceed 40 hits in a 720 series. But that's no guarantee as we've also tracked in casino results where a DI has gone over a 100 tosses with a 2 or 12 rich set and its not hit....sometimes they'd just slaughter the 3s or 11s which can be mental torture when you need a 2 or 12.

The above is a lot to distill, there's no shortcuts, it takes work, comments welcome and read the other ATS threads here, DN8R

[rhythm roller]

Then again paraphrasing Maddog who enjoyed saying "some days a DI gets something to work". Plus what Heavy said, some days its happening and some days it ain't....

Along these same lines, one of my favorite quotes ever was by Hayden Frye when he was the Iowa football coach. "The sun doesn't shine on the same dog's rump everyday."

So true in DI and so true in life!

[House of Orange]

Thanks Nate, I knew you would catch this. I reply because of the plethora of 3 and 11's on some of our journeys. Crapless is a great outlet for the ATS sets, the more 3 & 11's the better at 3-1. I will start 2, 12 at table minimum, going to $25 at first hit. Let 3 & 11 bring home the bacon.

[chuckindice]

Au contraire, there is a scientific way, consult the Bonetracker guru's

I won't say science, but I will say Analytics. Then again paraphrasing Maddog who enjoyed saying "some days a DI gets something to work". Plus what Heavy said, some days its happening and some days it ain't....

THIS. It's the Analytics that I love so much. I want to go play more often ... not so much just because of looking for the big win ... but because I love the analytics. I love the hunt for the 2 or the 12. It drives my wife nuts (she's a random-roller who also loves to play) because I get it the zone where I'm so focused on analyzing what's happening when I'm shooting. I've learned so much since discovering this Forum and Bone Tracker. It's so fun to get out there on a real table and put the education and analytics to use.

I loved the game of Craps before Heavy's Forum, of course. But now it's so much more fun!

- Chris

[grinder2017]

My local casino pays 35:1 for Small/Tall ... and 174:1 for the All. I have seen the 30:1 and 150:1 at other casinos. Is that the most-common payout? Did I just luck out with my local casino offering the higher payout?

I usually play $5 (2/1/2) on other shooters ... and bump it to $10 (4/2/4) on myself. I enjoy the fun of having the action on every shooter. Since I usually play a Don't Pass when I'm not shooting, I cover the $5 ATS with my dark side play (Come Out 7 still loses, just $5 more.)

- Chris

Chirs, you are a very lucky man. If my memory servers me correctly the house edge is down to 7% something at those pay outs. A much lower mountain to climb. I would be playing it more at those pay outs.
Cheers
Grinder

[Moe Bettor]

At Tunica long ago I was at a table where everybody bet the ATS endlessly. Two hours and nothing. I never play it, but have hit it or a part a few times. Maybe I'll give it the slot machine shot. A hundred dedicated to it using the best horn sets over a session. That's it.

[DarthNater]

THIS. It's the Analytics that I love so much. I want to go play more often ... not so much just because of looking for the big win ... but because I love the analytics. I love the hunt for the 2 or the 12. It drives my wife nuts (she's a random-roller who also loves to play) because I get it the zone where I'm so focused on analyzing what's happening when I'm shooting. I've learned so much since discovering this Forum and Bone Tracker. It's so fun to get out there on a real table and put the education and analytics to use.

I loved the game of Craps before Heavy's Forum, of course. But now it's so much more fun!

- Chris

Chris,
I love the Analytics too!

Next time you and the wife are planning a trip to Vegas, drop me a line and I'll tailor an Advanced Bonetracking Class specifically for you two - it takes a book of 720 rolls, sent a couple of weeks beforehand, to put it all together. Even if she is a random roller, she'll get a lot out of it as well. BTW Tell her to try setting a crossed sixes and standardizing her grip, pickup and toss, she might be less random than she thinks. We also are building a sniper class - we're thinking 4 books with the same Coaster Group to be fully effective, but we'll see; as the attack for other bonus bets, like the repeater, use similar methodologies.

Thanks for your interest and glad you find the Forum rewarding - keep charging, DN8R

BTW There are two other ATS threads in this Forum, that if you haven't read them - check them out - they both were recently bumped - enjoy!

[kumar]

Now that I have perked interest next question is
What percentage of the money you bet on a shooter would you dedicate to the ATS ? e.g. you plan to have $60 each on the 6/8 and $30 on the 5/9 [because these are the signature numbers for the shooter] or say just $90 each on the 6/8 for a total of $180 ;would you go 5/5/5 or 10/10/10?
Assume the player is a good controlled shooter