You're at table max. Now what?

[220Inside]

We all have them. Those press schedules that we've all put together and memorized to make the moves automatic each time we toss a number. We have them all worked out all the way to table max and have the discipline to stick to them when we're at the tables and shooting.

But what happens when that day comes. You get on a monster hand and are just pounding that favorite number of yours. Suddenly you find yourself maybe just one or two hits away from table max, or maybe you've climbed the summit and get that hit that takes you all the way there. Have you thought about what comes next?

In Biloxi the other weekend, we had a couple of different scenarios around table max. I realized after the weekend was over, that I hadn't thought at all beyond any of them. The goal was always getting to table max, but then what? Hands do not go on forever, Numbers go to sleep. Maybe you get that hit at table max.

Our straight out and 4/10 master, Bankerdude, took his lowly $15 4 bet all the way to table max. That stack of purple chips sat there for a few tosses, when he suddenly hit his point. On the come out, he tossed a 4. Was there a play there? A few tosses later and the hand ended, without a hit on that table max bet.

I tossed another hand that weekend that was just full of 6's. I took my $30 starting bet to $3000. I was two hits away from table max. Then the 6 just went to sleep....for a long time. I found myself doing something I never do, which is to focus on something other than the point. I was focused on that stack of pumpkins sitting out there and tossing another 6. At some point, I tried bringing my focus back even more on the 6 and tossed out a 2 way hard 6 bet. Those types of moves have helped me in the past to try and take control of a situation at the table, and is something I learned from Nate. I had tossed so many 6's up to that point, that I never thought about changing sets. Nor did I think about regressing, not when I was so close to that goal. I literally was holding $200 in my non shooting hand ready to toss them down on the table when I tossed that next 6 to press up to $4200. I had already visualized that $2500 getting added to my rack when I tossed the next 6. But if I had tossed that next 6, and one more to get to table max, I realized I didn't have a plan for that either.

So many options, it boggles the mind. Next time I'll be ready for these scenarios. I just haven't worked out what they'll be yet, but I see now that it's really important that I prepare for them. They're coming...

[grinder2017]

Put bet time!
Cheers
Grinder

[Parson]

Well, for me … i would love to say hit and down … but hit at max and reduce 50% is a good play.

I know thats not what you are talking about. Put bets i hear are the next move. Might not be allowed in some places.

[220Inside]

Well, for me … i would love to say hit and down … but hit at max and reduce 50% is a good play.

I know thats not what you are talking about. Put bets i hear are the next move. Might not be allowed in some places.

Actually, Ed, that is exactly what I am talking about.

Put bets are just one possible scenario certainly if one were so inclined. The conservative side of me though is thinking about a gradual exit plan and reclaiming some of those profits while still having some skin in the game as the hand continues. The current scenario I'm noodling over is to hopefully get one or two hits at table max and then start reducing on subsequent hits or perhaps even a more orderly approach every few tosses, using the inverse of my original forward press schedule. But how long to leave the bet hanging out there before you start thinking about dialing it back and locking up some of it in your rack if the number goes to sleep for an extended period of time.

Nothing is off the table here (pun intended). There aren't any wrong answers.

[Big O]

Great topic 220, setting goals and visualizing reaching those goals and how to proceed from there are essential to becoming a complete/successful craps player.

I have set press moves i try to adhere to. However, there are so many factors that affect when and how i apply them. Am i up am i down. Is it the first hand of a 4 day trip or the last of a 1 hour hit and run session. Parson mentioned on FB "debriefing". I think it is a critical part of planning for the next time as well.

Table Max is a different animal for me than my normal press moves if for no other reason than i havent been there yet. Saying how i would handle it would just be speculative. I do know that by the time i get there i will have taken a substantial profit off the table so i dont think i would be afraid of losing it. If thoughts of regressing to protect winnings pops into your head you probably should bring it down. I would think by that time i would be in the zone with a singular mind set to continue making good tosses. Unless something happened to break that focus i think if i hit it i would be trying to hit it again. I have played out scenarios in practice where i get to table max and as i am setting the dice if something feels off i set the dice down and say turn me off.

I tried bringing my focus back even more on the 6 and tossed out a 2 way hard 6 bet.

I use this move alot when i just need one number for the ATS.

[wild child]

Have you considered a QuarterBack Play Calling Wrist Sleeve
like Tom (THE GOAT) Brady wears ?

A browser search "QuarterBack Play Calling Wrist Sleeve like Brady wears?"

revealed a number of vendors
offering the product.
priced reasonably

W C

[220Inside]

I just use a 3x5 piece of paper. One one side I have sets for different number groups and sister pairs. The other side has sets for each of the individual numbers. It's small, fits in my wallet and is relatively inconspicuous in the rack.

I'd like to develop a business card sized blank template that I can hand out to people with APC contact info on one side and an empty grid on the back that can be filled in with different situational sets when Nate or I do bone tracker classes or for the coaches to hand out.

[DarthNater]

I just use a 3x5 piece of paper. One one side I have sets for different number groups and sister pairs. The other side has sets for each of the individual numbers. It's small, fits in my wallet and is relatively inconspicuous in the rack.

I'd like to develop a business card sized blank template that I can hand out to people with APC contact info on one side and an empty grid on the back that can be filled in with different situational sets when Nate or I do bone tracker classes or for the coaches to hand out.

I use a sheet itemizing sets sized to hide behind my players card. I actually wrestled with this theoretical question several months when I was designing the Press and Regression schedule for the NewBetTool Tab in BTE 5.8. I won't repeat or paste that in here and instead challenge everyone to get 5.8 and look at it yourselves and then tinker with it.

For me after seeing the multiple flirtations with Table max on Biloxi weekend, and having $3000 already on the six, that would likely mean $2000-2500 in the rail, so if that $3000 hits and pays $3500, I'd immediately press the six to $5000 and put the other $1500 in the rail - less a few sheckels for a hard 6 - lol. And then I'd hope someone takes a pic of that BIG STACK for prosperity.

Funny to be reading this today as Memo got his 10 to $1000 today to see it thwarted when the next come-out was a ten. Very similar what BD experienced in Biloxi, and Parson months earlier in Tunica. So that's the other part of the question which also has multiple answers - basically when you're half way there or better and you establish that number as the point - what do you do? For me - I leave up the place bet and make a minimal bet behind the line so the dealers will stop reminding me that I forgot my odds, DN8R

[220Inside]

For me after seeing the multiple flirtations with Table max on Biloxi weekend, and having $3000 already on the six, that would likely mean $2000-2500 in the rail, so if that $3000 hits and pays $3500, I'd immediately press the six to $5000 and put the other $1500 in the rail - less a few sheckels for a hard 6 - lol. And then I'd hope someone takes a pic of that BIG STACK for prosperity.

Funny to be reading this today as Memo got his 10 to $1000 today to see it thwarted when the next come-out was a ten. Very similar what BD experienced in Biloxi, and Parson months earlier in Tunica. So that's the other part of the question which also has multiple answers - basically when you're half way there or better and you establish that number as the point - what do you do? For me - I leave up the place bet and make a minimal bet behind the line so the dealers will stop reminding me that I forgot my odds, DN8R

I think for a lot of places, they push the max bet on 6 and 8 to $6000, as $5000 is not a right sized bet. Would have been nice to have to ask the crew at Hard Rock what their max bet is on that hand.

[DarthNater]

I think for a lot of places, they push the max bet on 6 and 8 to $6000, as $5000 is not a right sized bet. Would have been nice to have to ask the crew at Hard Rock what their max bet is on that hand.

I'd have loved to see you push the house for $6000. I'm sure if Heavy was there he would have shamed them into it!!

[Parson]

Well, for me … i would love to say hit and down … but hit at max and reduce 50% is a good play.

I know thats not what you are talking about. Put bets i hear are the next move. Might not be allowed in some places.

Actually, Ed, that is exactly what I am talking about.

Put bets are just one possible scenario certainly if one were so inclined. The conservative side of me though is thinking about a gradual exit plan and reclaiming some of those profits while still having some skin in the game as the hand continues. The current scenario I'm noodling over is to hopefully get one or two hits at table max and then start reducing on subsequent hits or perhaps even a more orderly approach every few tosses, using the inverse of my original forward press schedule. But how long to leave the bet hanging out there before you start thinking about dialing it back and locking up some of it in your rack if the number goes to sleep for an extended period of time.

Nothing is off the table here (pun intended). There aren't any wrong answers.

Well i am also thinking that if it hasnt hit 4 or 5 tosses, a reduction is in order. I was $1800 on your sixes, and they disapared. I was there because i took two hits at $900. Missing that press cost me the hit at $1800. I told folks on my end we should regress the six several times … i looked at your 3000, and said to myself i will ride with the shooter …. Amazing thing as soon as the 5 and 9 got pressed to 80 they never showed again.

[AllahPena]

Well... there's max then there's max. Lol

I was doing some exceptionally junkie shit at Wynn last night or this morning I should say around 5am. I was at crapless and I usually go 47k across table max to start but was stuck and feeling adventurous. I went 47k across, along with 2k put bets on all inside #s with full odds. My plan was 10 hits then take down/ re-evaluate. My first shot at it I rolled 4 #s then 7'd out recouping 84k on the 4 hits. Tried it again and hit the 10 # (240k) goal then took down my inside # place bets (27k). Kept shooting then took down the put bets and replaced it with place bets again. Of course I roll 3 8s in a row with less money on it now, anyway 7'd out after 14 hits. Not a bad experiment I guess though

[DarthNater]

Well... there's max then there's max. Lol

Nice! LoL We were hoping to hear your view on this, thanks!!

Was that the crapless table in the salon or the one in the main pit area? I'm curious if there's less bounce on the main pit table?

I was in Paris/Bally's this past weekend and it was wall-to-wall people, Good luck with the WSOP, Nate

[Tgold]

Re: You're at table max. Now what?

A) Never stand still
B) Do the same every time( Don't fluctuate as a function of how far ahead or behind we are relative to buyin).
C) Hit our target (Tmax) exactly (i.e., Don't undershoot & induce a stutter-step press that could give back some or all of previous compounds).

IMO it is optimum to NOT stay at Tmax after first hit. Many options for us / much depend on how that base unit traveled to table max/what is our objective. Im a Pos progression player and play at a lot of small cas with only $2K or $5K Tmax(a couple only $1k) so not that difficult to hit Tmax(More often at Bac then Craps). At craps I primarily wager a DC and or a Lay bet.
I've utilized three approaches.

1) When I received my first hit at Tmax regress an amount equal to my base unit (my initial wager and wager we lose the most often). If I get a second hit I then regress (2xBase Unit), third hit after hitting Tmax regress (3 x Base unit),..etc.

2) When I rec first hit at Tmax I stay at that level minus the Vig (or approximately 1.5%-2% of wager) on that hit and regress same on any additional hits. I would set aside each of the wins at or near Tmax. Once I had accumulated >=3 of these Tmax wins (sometimes not all accumulated in same shoe or session), I then schedule a trip to a casino with a higher Tmax and "cautiously" try to keep them alive (e.g., If tmax was $2k go to a cas with a $5K tmax, if wins occurred at $5k cas go to $10K Tmax cas,, and onward...etc)

3) When I hit at Tmax, set it aside with the addendum chips needed for the next-size wager for the next higher casino. I then regress to my base unit (1.0) that I started this streak and finish out the streak. I hold out this pressed-up wager amount and add it to my regular buyin amount when I go to the next higher casino. I only wager it in spots where I have a high level of confidence.

4) Another option Ive also utilized is a regression from my first Tmax hit, regress to 50% of Tmax, next hit regress to 33% of Tmax, next hit 25%,...etc. So basically 1,1/2,1/3,1/4, 1/5,...etc. It typically dies at the 1/2 or 1/3 levels.

My preference is for option #3 because IMO we don't want to dilute our compounds and we want the pressing focused on one wager (makes this superior to #2 above). Re: #2: Yes, there are times when its nice to have say two or three chances when I go to that next higher casino. However, there are also times when I hit Tmax once, and the next wager loses and Im glad not only the 1st win went to my stack but also the whole wager(-1.0 BU) went back to "my" stack. Since the reason I'm at Tmax is due to several hits in a row the streak is often approaching its expiration. So another reason for option#3.

Also, in Bac it is common for players to cap another players wager if we want to put a little more money on the table than Tmax(We just ask the player next to us "can I cap your wager", most agree , especially if they are not approaching Tmax. If u win tip them a green or black,...etc. A way to sometimes get a little extra on the table for another hit or two.

I've often wondered why as Craps players we don't do this. Especially like the recent Biloxi trip where it seemed most everyone was acquainted or part of the APC group. If a player is at Tmax one could simply hand your "press amount" to the guy next to you and ask him to cap whatever wager you have hit Tmax.


I guess there are just as many options for what to do at Tmax as there are betting styles. Find one that fits your style and betting objective.


All the best,