Well, Irish caught on real quick that I was bringing up some of the much-discussed topics from the old boards and recycling them here. Why? Well, we have a bunch of old timers and a few newbies on the board and a lot of those old discussions will be NEW to the newbies. Hell, most of you old timers have probably forgotten them as well.
Soooooo, on to the topic of Working on the Come Out.
Do YOU work your bets on the Come Out. (Maddog will answer yes to this)
What do you do when you knock yourself off your bets when WOTCO? (Maddog will answer this as well)
Do you see a trend here?
Okay, seriously. Many DI's believe that the best use of their skill on the Come Out is to toss a box number that they have working so they can get paid on it. Others will say "if you're that damn good why don't you hop the number?" To which some of might say "Do it all the time." Then there's the guy who thinks you'd be making better use of your skill if you concentrated on making the SEVEN work in your favor by tossing THAT on the come out.
SO what's your position on WOTCO - and why? Inquiring crapsters want to know.
Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Moderators: 220Inside, DarthNater
Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
I have been using the WOTCO play when I have the bankroll. I like to play a doey don't with $44 inside and working. But before I start doing that, I have learned to make sure that the dice set I'm using and my toss are doing what I want them to do.
Just this past Wednesday, I was practicing on Americraps home table. We were both WOTCO on his table and we were making a lot. I was up +$900(pretend money) on a $300 buy-in. Amercraps was tossing inside numbers like crazy. So after 3 hours of practice we went over to the local casino at midnight. We thought our tossing was still on. Well, it wasn't. There tables are not exactly the same as his table we were practicing on, (just slightly different layout material and underlayment). I went $44 inside WOTCO and Americraps did the same thing but in a larger amount. He gets the dice and rolls a 7. I didn't replace it and I waited and went to the dark side for $10. But Americraps went on to have 5 wotco 7's most of them were at the very beginning of our play.
We should have tested out the local casino table first before jumping in like that.
I played today and I had my spot SL1. I bought in for $100 and played the don'ts for $5. I knocked myself off on the come-out at first but after and couple of hands I didn't have any problems setting the point and coming back with the 7 for a win on my don't bet.
Like Heavy says; "Don't jump in with both feet" at least until you know what your dice are doing on that particular table.
$5Bill
Just this past Wednesday, I was practicing on Americraps home table. We were both WOTCO on his table and we were making a lot. I was up +$900(pretend money) on a $300 buy-in. Amercraps was tossing inside numbers like crazy. So after 3 hours of practice we went over to the local casino at midnight. We thought our tossing was still on. Well, it wasn't. There tables are not exactly the same as his table we were practicing on, (just slightly different layout material and underlayment). I went $44 inside WOTCO and Americraps did the same thing but in a larger amount. He gets the dice and rolls a 7. I didn't replace it and I waited and went to the dark side for $10. But Americraps went on to have 5 wotco 7's most of them were at the very beginning of our play.
We should have tested out the local casino table first before jumping in like that.
I played today and I had my spot SL1. I bought in for $100 and played the don'ts for $5. I knocked myself off on the come-out at first but after and couple of hands I didn't have any problems setting the point and coming back with the 7 for a win on my don't bet.
Like Heavy says; "Don't jump in with both feet" at least until you know what your dice are doing on that particular table.
$5Bill
-
tonfau
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Years ago when I was playing the 3 point molly I always kept my odds working. And did well most of the times. But switch over to the darkside little over 13 yrs ago. And you know once you go darkside you can't go back.
"Roll Tide Roll"
"Roll Tide Roll"
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
tonfau,
Playing the darkside for thirteen years you must be doing something right.If you don't mind sharing,how do you bet? I've tried off and on but can't seem to stay with it.A hot roll comes along and I,m gone.
Michael
Playing the darkside for thirteen years you must be doing something right.If you don't mind sharing,how do you bet? I've tried off and on but can't seem to stay with it.A hot roll comes along and I,m gone.
Michael
Rock On
M & M
M & M
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Yes, I work my bets on the Come-Out roll…. sometimes.
You might be thinking, “Sometimes? Ok what is your trigger to work on the Come-Out?”
Well, for me there is not a specific formula that drives my betting. I have several strategies that I modify and adjust to fit the situation at hand. I’m not trying to say that I am the king of observation and betting. What I mean is that I don’t follow a strict, or by-the-book, betting scheme. I stick with a few simple betting patterns that I use over and over, but adjust as I feel I need to adjust. The adjustments tend to occur based on the table temperature, an ongoing assessment of my tossing abilities, and dynamics of the table environment.
Anyway, so back to triggers for when to WOTCO. Here are some basic variations I use.
First, if I’m come-betting, then I will almost always work my odds on the come-out. If I’m come-betting it is because I’m betting on somebody else’s shooting. In some small cases it is on my own shooting and I just want to change things up, usually with a place-to-come strategy. I work my odds on come-bets because it is mathematically superior. If I’m come-betting it is generally because I’m am just marking time at the table and am simply playing the odds.
Now the other times I WOTCO are when I am shooting the dice. The primary trigger here is that I have decided that my toss is “on” and I am focused on maximizing my returns. I employ two WOTCO strategies (generally, like I said, I’m flexible).
~ One Hit Regression:
For this strategy I will do a $100 IC, setup and WOTCO. One (or sometimes two) roll and I bring the action down and use the winnings to continue the hand. $25 five, $30 six & eight, $15 field. The first roll of the dice will pay $15, $20, $30 or $45 (my casinos field pays 3x on 12) depending on the result (assuming non-seven). So I reduce to anything from a $6 six & eight, to $44 inside, adding money from my rack as needed to round off the numbers.
~ Continuing a good hand:
In this situation I have had some good hands or a current good hand and in the processes I have worked my bets up to higher levels. I will sometimes WOTCO and focus on continuing the hand. This works for me because I do not believe in any due-number notions. In other words I’m never thinking that the seven is getting closer and closer every toss. Again the math side of me is fixed on the idea that “every toss has a 16% chance of coming up seven”. So I don’t mind keeping my bets working and focus on tossing that next number. If a seven comes, it comes, and my working or not working my bets is not going change that. Of course sometimes I might decide I’m tired, or my last few tosses were not crisp, or some other thing. If these are the case then I DON’T work the bets. Like I said, it is not a precise formula, just another way to play when the dice are on a roll.
So, yeah, I’ll work the come out roll and make some extra cash on one more hit. And I’ll take my lumps when that roll turns up a seven.
You might be thinking, “Sometimes? Ok what is your trigger to work on the Come-Out?”
Well, for me there is not a specific formula that drives my betting. I have several strategies that I modify and adjust to fit the situation at hand. I’m not trying to say that I am the king of observation and betting. What I mean is that I don’t follow a strict, or by-the-book, betting scheme. I stick with a few simple betting patterns that I use over and over, but adjust as I feel I need to adjust. The adjustments tend to occur based on the table temperature, an ongoing assessment of my tossing abilities, and dynamics of the table environment.
Anyway, so back to triggers for when to WOTCO. Here are some basic variations I use.
First, if I’m come-betting, then I will almost always work my odds on the come-out. If I’m come-betting it is because I’m betting on somebody else’s shooting. In some small cases it is on my own shooting and I just want to change things up, usually with a place-to-come strategy. I work my odds on come-bets because it is mathematically superior. If I’m come-betting it is generally because I’m am just marking time at the table and am simply playing the odds.
Now the other times I WOTCO are when I am shooting the dice. The primary trigger here is that I have decided that my toss is “on” and I am focused on maximizing my returns. I employ two WOTCO strategies (generally, like I said, I’m flexible).
~ One Hit Regression:
For this strategy I will do a $100 IC, setup and WOTCO. One (or sometimes two) roll and I bring the action down and use the winnings to continue the hand. $25 five, $30 six & eight, $15 field. The first roll of the dice will pay $15, $20, $30 or $45 (my casinos field pays 3x on 12) depending on the result (assuming non-seven). So I reduce to anything from a $6 six & eight, to $44 inside, adding money from my rack as needed to round off the numbers.
~ Continuing a good hand:
In this situation I have had some good hands or a current good hand and in the processes I have worked my bets up to higher levels. I will sometimes WOTCO and focus on continuing the hand. This works for me because I do not believe in any due-number notions. In other words I’m never thinking that the seven is getting closer and closer every toss. Again the math side of me is fixed on the idea that “every toss has a 16% chance of coming up seven”. So I don’t mind keeping my bets working and focus on tossing that next number. If a seven comes, it comes, and my working or not working my bets is not going change that. Of course sometimes I might decide I’m tired, or my last few tosses were not crisp, or some other thing. If these are the case then I DON’T work the bets. Like I said, it is not a precise formula, just another way to play when the dice are on a roll.
So, yeah, I’ll work the come out roll and make some extra cash on one more hit. And I’ll take my lumps when that roll turns up a seven.
Click here for: BoneTracker 5.6 (Requires Excel)
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
At the end of the day about the only thing I "work" on the come out are prop bets.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
-
Americraps
- Posts: 1101
- Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:42 pm
- Location: Elgin, IL
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
I think not working on the comeout is a benefit to the casino. Consider your standard, average hand is what- 7 or 8 average rolls? Lets say you come out on a six, then you throw a 5,3,8,8,11,7. If you were betting inside, you had 3 hits. If you were wotco you had 4 hits. Not a huge difference, but over the long run it is.
Lets say your hand starts with a 6, then another 6, then a CO6, then another 6, then a 6, then a 7. You've thrown five sixes and got paid on only two of them if you weren't wotco. The casino is smiling. OK this is an extreme example, but something close to this has happened to me before.
Irish wrote about getting knocked off in the middle of a hand, turning it into a loser or at least not as profitable. Yes that happens, and it hurts bad when it happens, especially when you are nice and pressed up. But what about when you are pressed up and you come out on the number that is pressed the highest? Oh, my toes are curling. I'm thinking that if you are turning off your bets for the CO to protect your $ on the layout, why would you ever turn those bets on? Are they really any safer on the next roll? The seven will come when it comes, why not get paid on every roll while you've got the dice?
Lets say your hand starts with a 6, then another 6, then a CO6, then another 6, then a 6, then a 7. You've thrown five sixes and got paid on only two of them if you weren't wotco. The casino is smiling. OK this is an extreme example, but something close to this has happened to me before.
Irish wrote about getting knocked off in the middle of a hand, turning it into a loser or at least not as profitable. Yes that happens, and it hurts bad when it happens, especially when you are nice and pressed up. But what about when you are pressed up and you come out on the number that is pressed the highest? Oh, my toes are curling. I'm thinking that if you are turning off your bets for the CO to protect your $ on the layout, why would you ever turn those bets on? Are they really any safer on the next roll? The seven will come when it comes, why not get paid on every roll while you've got the dice?
See it in your mind FIRST...Then do it!
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Now, this gets me to thinking about that "lay all the numbers across" on the come out and then setting for and tossing the seven for a quick $120 win. I know Scribe has successfully employed that strategy on occasion. Any thoughts on that play?
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Now your talking H...a hop on the red is just icing on the cake.
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Tested the dark side just a few nights ago...
Not quite laying all the numbers across but I tip-toed in. I was the last player at the table so we are talking 5 am. My tosses had really faired pretty poor most of the morning place betting. I remember reading some past reports from $5Bill about laying the 5. So I thought let's give it a try for a few tosses. I really hadn't tossed many 5's earlier so I guess I felt comfortable with this approach.
Resluts...I was 6 for 6 winning this bet. I hit it 6 times in about 15 minutes. I went from in the whole to a +70 for the night.
Some things to add...I did not press each win. Just took it strainght up as a $30 lay{$1 Vig). Set the all sevens every toss. No other bets other than the pass or don't pass. On one hand I tossed about 8 numbers before the 7 came. On the average I suppose it was about 4 tosses.
Note to self...I might try the press once in a while.
David
Not quite laying all the numbers across but I tip-toed in. I was the last player at the table so we are talking 5 am. My tosses had really faired pretty poor most of the morning place betting. I remember reading some past reports from $5Bill about laying the 5. So I thought let's give it a try for a few tosses. I really hadn't tossed many 5's earlier so I guess I felt comfortable with this approach.
Resluts...I was 6 for 6 winning this bet. I hit it 6 times in about 15 minutes. I went from in the whole to a +70 for the night.
Some things to add...I did not press each win. Just took it strainght up as a $30 lay{$1 Vig). Set the all sevens every toss. No other bets other than the pass or don't pass. On one hand I tossed about 8 numbers before the 7 came. On the average I suppose it was about 4 tosses.
Note to self...I might try the press once in a while.
David
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Hey DSS47
I'm glad everything worked out for you on my $31 No 5 bet.
--------------------------------------------------------
$31 No 5 Parley
_____________
When I see someone roll a seven on come out, Some times I will lay $31 no 5. I could do the 9 but I just stay with the 5 unless he has a history of rolling 5's. But It’s your choice. How many times have you seen a roller make more than one 7 on the come-out? I am hoping that he will make another 7. Then I parley the bet until he makes his point. Then I “TAKE IT DOWN.” This play works even better if you can find a place that only charges a vig on a win. For Example; $30 to $45 to $75 to $123 to $204. You get the Idea.
The main reason I like this play rather than hopping the sevens is that once the point is established, I can take down my bet and not lose any money, unless he knocks me off my 5. And it does happen. If you’re the shooter and can make a lot of 7's and stay away from the 5, so much the better. .(Straight 6's set)
If you have the bankroll, You could start at a higher level. That’s why I made the chart go up this high
Bet+Vig__________Payoff______Profit
$30+1(31) ________=$20 _____-$1=$19
$45+1($46)________=$30_____-$1=$29
$75+2($77)________=$50_____-$2=$48
$120+4($124)______=$80_____-$4=$76
$195+6($201)______=$130____-$6=$124
$315+10($325)_____=$210____-$10=$200
$525+17($542)_____=$350____-$17=$333
$825+27($852)_____=$550____-$27=$523
$1350+45($1395)___=$900____-$45=$855
$2250+75($2325)___=$1500___-$75=$1425
$3750+125($3875)__=$2500___-$125=$2375
I'm glad everything worked out for you on my $31 No 5 bet.
--------------------------------------------------------
$31 No 5 Parley
_____________
When I see someone roll a seven on come out, Some times I will lay $31 no 5. I could do the 9 but I just stay with the 5 unless he has a history of rolling 5's. But It’s your choice. How many times have you seen a roller make more than one 7 on the come-out? I am hoping that he will make another 7. Then I parley the bet until he makes his point. Then I “TAKE IT DOWN.” This play works even better if you can find a place that only charges a vig on a win. For Example; $30 to $45 to $75 to $123 to $204. You get the Idea.
The main reason I like this play rather than hopping the sevens is that once the point is established, I can take down my bet and not lose any money, unless he knocks me off my 5. And it does happen. If you’re the shooter and can make a lot of 7's and stay away from the 5, so much the better. .(Straight 6's set)
If you have the bankroll, You could start at a higher level. That’s why I made the chart go up this high
Bet+Vig__________Payoff______Profit
$30+1(31) ________=$20 _____-$1=$19
$45+1($46)________=$30_____-$1=$29
$75+2($77)________=$50_____-$2=$48
$120+4($124)______=$80_____-$4=$76
$195+6($201)______=$130____-$6=$124
$315+10($325)_____=$210____-$10=$200
$525+17($542)_____=$350____-$17=$333
$825+27($852)_____=$550____-$27=$523
$1350+45($1395)___=$900____-$45=$855
$2250+75($2325)___=$1500___-$75=$1425
$3750+125($3875)__=$2500___-$125=$2375
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
Thanks $5Bill for the info...I guess it could have just been pure dumb luck. I'll take it.
Don't want to get off the thread subject here. If I'm place betting I have yet to WOTCO. However I am looking to learn Dicer's Strategy and WOTCO is part of the play.
David
Don't want to get off the thread subject here. If I'm place betting I have yet to WOTCO. However I am looking to learn Dicer's Strategy and WOTCO is part of the play.
David
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
For a while I messed with the idea of laying the three numbers that my tracking my roll told me I was less liking to roll using a sevens set. This was in Tunica where you paid vig only on a win.
I was ahead on that approach, but the casino I usually played at raised the minimum I had to lay and I stopped.
Noah
I was ahead on that approach, but the casino I usually played at raised the minimum I had to lay and I stopped.
Noah
Re: Working on the Come Out (WOTCO)
I know some people don't WOTCO is they felt it brought more attention to them, since it is not what the random rollers do.
Didn't want to call any more attention to them self.
Noah
Didn't want to call any more attention to them self.
Noah
Last bumped by heavy on Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:53 pm.