I am a Blackjack player and I found I have an interested in Craps after reading several dice books...I like the dark side of Craps...I am leaving for Tunica a week from today and I want to play some Craps....Since this would be my first time at a Craps table I want to use a red chip betting strategy...I am looking at Sam Grafstein's Pensioner's play and the play Heavy sent me called "one hit - can't miss." I also have been think about a mini-martingale on the Don't Pass that goes like this First bet one unit, second bet two units, third and final bet four units...I would stop and wait for a new shooter after a win or a four unit loss...I know this would be a boring to many players but this trip I just want to bet small and learn by watching the table...Any suggestions or comments are welcome...
I have two questions....How long is the learning curve to gain an edge by dice influencing? Playing the Dark Side can I expect any grief from the right betters? If this happens how would I handle this problem? Thank You...Cheers
Playing the Dark Side?
Moderators: 220Inside, DarthNater
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Couple of suggestions. First, skip the come out roll entirely. Once the shooter has established a point make a Don't Come wager. Once the next number is tossed - assuming it is a box number it will travel behind the box, where you can lay odds if you wish. The bet then becomes "invisible" to the right siders so you don't have to deal with the negativity from them. If anyone gives you any grief just ignore them. If it becomes an issue you could mention that you are betting against the dice - not the shooter. If it persists, make eye contact with the boxman and ask "do I have to put up with this?'
If you're going to run a negative progression I'd suggest you try a fibo instead of a martingale, but that's your call.
As for learning curve on dice control - it all depends on you. Some people seem to be naturals and are up and running fairly successfully in the short run. Others never really get it. Personally, the last time I changed my grip and toss it took about six months of practice - probably 100 - 120 hours - to get up to speed with enough proficiency that I felt like it was worth taking the toss to the casino.
If you're going to run a negative progression I'd suggest you try a fibo instead of a martingale, but that's your call.
As for learning curve on dice control - it all depends on you. Some people seem to be naturals and are up and running fairly successfully in the short run. Others never really get it. Personally, the last time I changed my grip and toss it took about six months of practice - probably 100 - 120 hours - to get up to speed with enough proficiency that I felt like it was worth taking the toss to the casino.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Thanks Heavy...I do like the "fibo" better...
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Here is another play I forgot to put in original post...DC with odds on the 5, 6, 8, 9 and no odds on the 4 and 10 because of trying to limit variance...Any thoughts? I am done now...Sorry for the noob questions...
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
That is actually "Dave's System" 
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
bushido,
Playing on the dark side is still a neg ex game if you are betting on random rollers. No better than playing the right side in the long run.
Playing on the dark side is still a neg ex game if you are betting on random rollers. No better than playing the right side in the long run.
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
If you are talking about DC with odds on the 5, 6, 8, 9 and no odds on the 4 and 10...I got this play from a long time professional card counter...Where he got it I don't know...wudged wrote:That is actually "Dave's System"
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
There's a player in Chicago named "Dave" who plays that strategy - PL minimum bets with $60 lay bets on inside numbers - no lay action on the four and ten - if you get knocked off two numbers you pull the remaining odds and just go with the underlying flat bet - something like that. Dave was so successful over the course of one year that he was reportedly barred from playing craps at Harrah's Joliet.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Yeah, the fibo is a negative progression that runs like this: 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 8 - 13 - 21 - 34 . . . basically your next bet is the sum of the two previous bets. You're looking to score two consecutive wins, then regress back and start the progression over. So if you bet 1 unit and lost your next bet would also be 1 unit. If you lost that your next bet would be 2 units (1 + 1). If you lost that (you'd be down 4 units total) your next bet would be 3 units. Let's assume you won that bet. Your next bet REMAINS at the 3 unit level. If you win that one you have a 2 unit win locked up and you start the progression over at 1 unit. It's a little less aggressive than the martingale. Now, wwwww winter wolf wolf byte beats the heck out of me what his handle is this week - combines the fibo (marketed as the neural system) with a "two-capping" strategy that has performed pretty well as far as system plays go. At least that's what W5 reports. Perhaps he'll chime in.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
I have always been a non-conformist so playing the dark side seems natural to me...realtime wrote:bushido,
Playing on the dark side is still a neg ex game if you are betting on random rollers. No better than playing the right side in the long run.
Thank you for the reply...Cheers...Re: Playing the Dark Side?
You need to get together with Golfer, Isgood and me. We could have a dark sider table take over. Well, we could take over one end of the table anyway.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
No problem. I didn't mean to come off as calling you a thief or anything, just letting you know it's a popular enough strategy that it has a name (so to speak.)Bushido wrote:If you are talking about DC with odds on the 5, 6, 8, 9 and no odds on the 4 and 10...I got this play from a long time professional card counter...Where he got it I don't know...wudged wrote:That is actually "Dave's System"
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Sounds fun...I hope to attend a Crapsfest next year so maybe we could do a "dark sider table take over"...Heavy wrote:You need to get together with Golfer, Isgood and me. We could have a dark sider table take over. Well, we could take over one end of the table anyway.
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Oh, you didn't come across that way at all...I was playing around with that strategy on WinCraps and I like it...I will be using it in Tunica next trip...wudged wrote:No problem. I didn't mean to come off as calling you a thief or anything, just letting you know it's a popular enough strategy that it has a name (so to speak.)Bushido wrote:If you are talking about DC with odds on the 5, 6, 8, 9 and no odds on the 4 and 10...I got this play from a long time professional card counter...Where he got it I don't know...wudged wrote:That is actually "Dave's System"
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Along the lines of the Dark Side...I actually saw this play on youtube (so make of it as you wish). I have tried it in live play about 10 times. One bet only on random shooters. This play is $50.00 thru the Don't Come...then place the number it traveled to for $50.00. If it travels to the 6 or 8 win $8.00. If it travels to the 5 or 9 win $20.00. If it travels to the 4 or 10 win $48.00. If the 7 is tossed it's a push. Also, if the point is made and the bet is still on the board...working on the comeout.
Thoughts?
My results...I have won $50.00 on Ace/Duce. I have lost $50.00 on the 7. I have maybe 3 times the result was a push. The balance then has resulted in small wins. Hit the 5/9 several times. The 10 just once. 6/8 maybe just once or twice.
To much risk for little reward?
Thoughts?
My results...I have won $50.00 on Ace/Duce. I have lost $50.00 on the 7. I have maybe 3 times the result was a push. The balance then has resulted in small wins. Hit the 5/9 several times. The 10 just once. 6/8 maybe just once or twice.
To much risk for little reward?
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
I heard a dealer refer to this as "a whole side of haters"Heavy wrote:You need to get together with Golfer, Isgood and me. We could have a dark sider table take over. Well, we could take over one end of the table anyway.
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al_falcons
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:48 pm
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Here is W7's play as I interpreted it for the don't pass loss progression. I don't do any capping, which is waiting for events to happen X number of times in a row. His strategy is more complicated, I made it simple. You go up as you lose and down as you win. If you win two in a row, skip a bet and move down 2 bets. This helps keep the bets small and keep you from losing your shirt more ofter. It works best at a $5 table so you can take advantage of the low starting limit. I described it here: http://diceinstitute.maxforum.org/2012/ ... dom/page4/Heavy wrote: Now, wwwww winter wolf wolf byte beats the heck out of me what his handle is this week - combines the fibo (marketed as the neural system) with a "two-capping" strategy that has performed pretty well as far as system plays go. At least that's what W5 reports. Perhaps he'll chime in.
I described two versions and I prefer the second version where you if you are losing, then pull yourself out of the hole and are in the plus side of your buy-in, then you go back the the beginning and bet $5. As you can see from the 40 random rolls that I created in WinCraps (last post on this page) It won 83% of the time with an average win of $59.
I have been testing this method on a Roulette simulator online betting black only and have never lost in about 10 attempts. I have used in real casinos only twice, both on Roulette betting black and have won around $100 each time and then quit. The largest bet I made in those two sessions was $35. I was going to play it a third time last weekend in Atlantic City, but the Roulette table I was charting had too many long streaks of red for my taste. The method works best on a "choppy" table where you are getting some wins and some losses, not a table where you have a long losing streak.
I also tested it after the fact against a private craps table I was at in Atlantic City last weekend with 100% DI attempted shooters and the method would have won $51 after about 8 hours of play, or $241 after the first 3 hours, that is when I quit the table because it was so cold.
http://diceinstitute.maxforum.org/2012/ ... e2/#post27
When I have played it with Roulette I have been funded to the 14th bet and was not planning on going further than that. By doing that you take a greater risk that the method will fail, but I don't have $6598 to make it to the 32nd bet. Ole W7 says that this method has NEVER lost when he has used it fully-funded and with enough time to win your money back, which could take a while. That is why I am preferring it on the Roulette table vs craps because the outcomes are faster.
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al_falcons
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:48 pm
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Fibo is short for Fibonacci, he was a mathematician:
Leonardo Pisano Bigollo Fibonacci (1170~1250)
http://www.frixo.com/sbook/articles/fib ... system.asp
Leonardo Pisano Bigollo Fibonacci (1170~1250)
http://www.frixo.com/sbook/articles/fib ... system.asp
Re: Playing the Dark Side?
Fibonacci Betting System...$nakeeye$ wrote:Bushido wrote:Thanks Heavy...I do like the "fibo" better...
Okay -
I've seen mucho acronynyms in my day -
In addition to a lot of other things which can not / will not be mentioned here -
As MY curiousity is piqued - just WTF is " fibo " !
Heavy wrote:Yeah, the fibo is a negative progression that runs like this: 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 8 - 13 - 21 - 34 . . . basically your next bet is the sum of the two previous bets. You're looking to score two consecutive wins, then regress back and start the progression over. So if you bet 1 unit and lost your next bet would also be 1 unit. If you lost that your next bet would be 2 units (1 + 1). If you lost that (you'd be down 4 units total) your next bet would be 3 units. Let's assume you won that bet. Your next bet REMAINS at the 3 unit level. If you win that one you have a 2 unit win locked up and you start the progression over at 1 unit. It's a little less aggressive than the martingale. Now, wwwww winter wolf wolf byte beats the heck out of me what his handle is this week - combines the fibo (marketed as the neural system) with a "two-capping" strategy that has performed pretty well as far as system plays go. At least that's what W5 reports. Perhaps he'll chime in.