Rolls for testing a betting system.

[memo]

I think the question of srr and betting could be interesting and of value...
I hope we can do it in another thread.
acpa and WB set this thread up nicely and I am interested in where it goes in its present form.
Truth is that I am slow and plodding im my thinking...I cannot have too many distractions in one place or I become even more confused than my normal state. I also find myself falling asleep in my recliner.

Memo

[WOLFBYTE]

Yo Kindred, 25-Watt Electro-Magnetic Units........

The Zumma Craps System Testing using ..." The 4/10 Craps System ".... has gone to 2,030 back-to-back craps shooters with NO meltdowns !


THE 4/10 CRAPS SYSTEM :
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

A ]......Wait until a 4....4 or 10....10 passes without lay-betting. Wait until the next 4 or 10 point to set-up goes 4/7 or 10/7 before betting the third 4 or 10 point to.... 7-out. This " Capping " ( C ) kills off repeating strings of 44's and 1010's....like : 44,1010,44,44,44,44,1010.

B ] ...... When a min. of six numbers are rolled, after the 4 or 10 point sets-up....take-down all bets and wait for the next 4 or 10 point to set-up. Treat this point outcome as a non-event.

C ] ...... If the new shooter rolls two PL winners, in his C/O throwings, back-to-back, DO NOT BET ON HIM ! Put on-hold the progression, again, treat this.... turn-at-throwing-the-dice.... as a non-event.

However, if the shooters first two outcomes are PL winners, and the 4 or 10 point has NOT manifested yet, and he then throws a 2 or 3 before the the 4 or 10 point manifests, it is optional to use the 4 or 10 point, when it sets-up, in your progression ? I do.

D ]......I want to make $400.00 off each of my lay-bets...so.... I know, at times, I will have to make a double-up bet after a loss. Make only one lay-bet, win or lose, on each 4 or 10 point set-up.... if possible.

E ]......When you lose your first lay-bet ( - $800.00 ) wait for two non-betting winner's to pass and bet for a full recovery on the third bet. If it too loses ( It has happened only twice in 2,500 back-to-back shooters ) stay at that betting level on the next back-to-back 4 or 10 points that set-up.

It awes & blows-me-away how the 4's and 10's travels in " Clusters " of like-outcomes. They manifest in cluster-groups of 4-4's and 10-10's and in groups of 4-7's and 10-7's..... it occurs... over and over !


F ] ...... I do not use odds betting....OK....I once in a while use a small odds bet.

G ] ..... If a shooter throws a 10-10 or 4-4 ...' DO NOT ' bet the 4/10 System on the rest of his turn, as the table shooter........

Often, I have seen a shooter's throwing turn go : 44, 88, 66, 7, 47 or 107. The shooter's turn-ending 4-7 and/or 10-7 ' DO NOT ' count in the progression.....again, treat them as a non-happened event.

The above rules are based on thousands of back-tested and real Casino rolls. I have faith in these rules and I put my $$$$ where my mouth is..... every time I go into a real or card-craps Casino.

I am going to post my last 100 shooter-rolls that I scored using the above rules.

I will be posting the 4/10 outcomes from Zumma's ' Craps System Testing Book. ' The rolls are from .. " The Four Queens " and " The Golden Nugget Casino's " .... in DT Vegas.

The shooter range is from the 1,911th to the 2,031st shooters.

Off to the gym..................

Party On !
WB
END OF PART #1.............

[WOLFBYTE]

Yo.....Fellow " Street-Light Slider's " ........( google it ).............

Heavy, I find you as the fairest and most open-minded dice-site-operator, on the web.
I would not post here if I did not think that was so..........
Thank You for all your time, money and energy you put into your site.
WB-

Here is some of my '4/10 Dice System' charted-outcomes from the Zumma Craps System Testing book :

I am going to back-up the results from the last 100 handicapped shooter's. You can follow in your Zumma book.

I will, if there is interest, start my outcome stats...... from Zumma's Page #1 :
===============================================================
Shooter #:
#1,911...44...waiting for ' capping ' of this 44 outcome on next... ' live'.... play.
#1,912...7-88-7-99-88-7-107 = Play is .... " off " ( rule # C ). This is a ' dead ' DP play.
#1,917...494.....Skipping over this PL outcome.........
#1,920...10,6,7 Shooter # 1,911 is now " capped. " Lay Bet + $800.00 on next 4 or 10 point....
#J1,921... 10,6,11,7 .... We win + $400.00 on our lay bet !
Wait for next 4/10 to set up.......
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Total rolls for this play 90. Play-time : 43 minutes.
===============================================================
Well... I need to go to town....
To be continued :
Party On
WB
END PART #2 ......

[acpa]

Here are another 30 rolls for you to use.

4,4
4,5
1,1
5,4
6,3
4,2
6,3
5,1
6,5
6,3
3,1
1,1
6,1

3,2
5,1
3,3
5,6
3,1
3,2
3,2
1,2
6,6
6,2
3,6
5,3
1,4
5,3
2,1
6,2
4,1

See what these mean to you.

Noah

[WOLFBYTE]

Yo.....

Well,there are only three hands in your new numbers. No " 77 Craps System " or "4/10 Craps System " plays manifested, in the three hands.

Jessssss ! somebody made some $$$$ off those three hands ?

Was it you ?
WB

[acpa]

Yes.

Noah

[WOLFBYTE]

Yo Kindred, Flat-Toothed Primates.........

I am going to post a new ..." EASY " ( hopefully ) .....4/10 Craps System.

The experts write that the United States population operates their brains at a fifth-grade mental level.

The stats on that are old, I am sure it is even lower now with some seg. of our population .....breeding

like rabbits.

Therefore, my new System is called: ....." The Fifth-Grade Craps System. "

I hit upon its creation by charting 4's and 10's. It is based on trying to find a simple-edge using a DP Lay betting system.

The progression math is somewhat like the one I used several years ago. It was a simple 5-step double-up-after-a-loss system. I used it on roulette.

At that time, I back-testing it on my home computer for 5,000 spins. I found my home RNG worked !

So....I took + $1,200.00 out of my bank account and I took a 12-hour turnaround bus trip to Vegas.

My rules were to wait for four same-way outcomes, to occur, and then launch into a 5-step progression..... betting I could catch a win on one of the nine plays, in action.

Well, I took my $1,200.00 gaming kitty to + $4,200.00, in 5 hours, using this progression :

50.00/100.00/200.00/400.00/800.00

The Roulette wheel, next to the cash-cage at the Monte Carlo, was the only wheel to take me to the 5th- progression-step in my progression that night.

The system worked on the next 5 bus trips to Nevada Casinos and I found my gaming kitty had grown fat.... from its starting $1,200.00 to + $12,000.00

On the next trip, I ran into a betting situation were I lost - $6,000.00 ....jessss ! back it went...to the Casino.

Stunned, I gave-up my progression playing.

However, looking back, I was lucky to have been able made it work for as long as it did.

I mean.... jesssssss I had... no...' STOP-LOSS ' system...in place. I did not even know what a stop-loss was.

It was a good hit-and-run way to play....when it worked.

So.... I have been updating a version with stop-losses and pre-betting triggers.

Hopefully, this ' New System ' will jade the house-edge back to the players-side of Casino gaming odds.

Testing..........................
Thoughts ?
WB

[heavy]

50.00/100.00/200.00/400.00/800.00

Were you continuing to use this same exact progression as your bankroll grew, or on subsequent trips as your BR grew to 12000 were you adding a few zeros on the end of the progression - e.g. $500, $1000, $2000, $4000, $8000?

[WOLFBYTE]

Heavy & All other Flat-Toothed Primates........

Well, it started out 50-100-200-400 & 800. I stayed at that progression-level for the entire first trip. I liked this progression play because I did not have to deal with Casino dealers.

I liked playing on busy Sat. nites because I would check the scoreboards for the correct progression set-up's and usually, the roulette dealers were sooooooooooo busy, I could slip my bets onto the lay-out without notice.

On that first trip, I found two young guys, from Arizona, bird-doging me. It was hard to pick them up because, as you know, the Monte Carlo keeps its Casino in the dark. It spot-lights its Casino games.....so..... stand back 2 feet from the roulette table, and you too are dark.

They said they had junket-flown in from the Mesa, Arizona. They stated they had lost their butts playing BJ at the $100.00, a hand, level.

They had been watching me and noticed I was winning every time I bet.

They were down-in-the-mouth over their BJ losses, so much so.... that I shared my system with them. A... " Us against the Casino " Wolfpac alliance was created.

The youngest one asked : " Are you sure this system will work ? "

I thought for a while and then I fell back on the only thing I had to fall back on.....my home computer back-testing of over 5,000 roulette outcomes.

I told him my computer testing said it would work....period.

I have never had soooooo much fun, playing with other gamblers.... the two were frantically-driven to recover their lost BJ loot... so..... they would run and chart the 6 roulette wheels for 4 same-way outcome set-ups and then, in the dark, run and body-tap something like .... " # 4 wheel just set-up. "

The three of us would run-like-hell to that wheel and quickly post our bets. No sitting down was used. It was like having to catch a leaving train.....over and over !

Afer several $50.00 wins, they did the right thing, they moved up to a + $100.00 base-betting progression....again, after a few wins they moved up to a + $200.00 progression = .... 200,400,800,1,600.00. I stayed at the President Grant $50.00 progression, all night.

We Wolf-packed for hours and when it was almost daylight, the most awesome, satisfying personal-thing happened to me.

The two of them came to me and said they had to catch the plane back to Mesa. I could tell they were no-longer in the post- BJ loss-down-in-the-mouth mode.

The older kid drifted away and so did the younger one. He got 10-12 feet away and with a wad if $100.00 bills that would gag-a-horse, the younger one turned and in a deep voice said .... " Thank You. "

TRANSLATION : You saved our gaming-kitty butts !
=======================================================================

I drifted up to the $100.00 base-betting-unit game as my gaming kiddy grew.

After a while, I moved up to the $200.00 progression. I never went above the base-bet $200.00 progression.

The above experience gave me a glow because I was able to help two other Souls -

WB

[heavy]

I thought I would bump this thread back up to the top of the page since we've had a few questions on betting theory and test rolls of late. Check out the thread in its entirety and add your comments - if any.

[WOLFBYTE]

Good Day,

I have gotten my computer back up.

I am taking the Greyhound bus

to the Vegas Rio next week. The Vegas Casino's have a RT Casino ticket from Visalia , Ca

to the DT Vegas bus station ( next to the Fremont Experience thing, ) for only $ 80.00! to

go 800 + miles..... sweet !.

I have taken it twice before.

I have been back-testing my latest version of what I call my 4/10 Lay Betting System

Hooked into ' Hank's ' 4/10 lay betting system.

The two systems work good together. ! I think they work so good is because of the 66.66% DP Player-

bias when lay betting the 4 or 10 that is built into the Craps Game Rules.

Sure....there is only a 50% pay-off when a 7-out occurs but using a simple two-step neg.

progression, through 60,000 real recorded rolls of the dice has shown me that this way of playing

craps ... does indeed.....have... LEGS !

I used a previous version of the 4/10 system ( minus Hank's System )

at the South Lake Tahoe's Harraha's two Month's ago and it generated + $2,200.00

in 75 minutes flat !

That was the first time I ever left a +$300.00 tip for the kid 3AM Craps crew.

Well, I have got to get ready for the local mass transit bus to take me to

' The Palace' ....our local Indian Casino..... this AM.

I built a house on the Kings River after I retired from 33 years in local law enforcement and the transit bus

comes up to my back yard gate.

It is so cheap .... .75 cents to go the22 miles to the Casino !

Last week using Silverthorne's Neg Progression 32-step Neural Betting System, I took +

$6,920.00 to my B Of A Bank Account playing baccarat and BJ at our local Indian Casino...nice !!!!

Off to do more ... ' MONEY HARVESTING ' this AM.

Thoughts ?

Jim

[bobthetree]

Wolfbyte, glad to see you back up and posting! I have seen various forms of your system all over this board. They are certainly intriguing. They are also quite complex. I don't think I have found just one place where every one of the rules is listed in something I could really follow. Maybe I am missing something, or maybe I haven't fully deciphered Hank's system. It does seem interesting that you have been winning with a pure "system/betting meathod" whatever you want to call it. You said that it is some sort of a progression...

Is it a negative progression?

What is the ratio of how big your average win is vs an average loss?

How often do you run into whatever is the "big loss" in the progression?

If you have been making good money at it for a while now, then maybe it works! Have you thought about taking on the betting system challenge? - http://vegasclick.com/gambling/betting- ... lenge.html - At the bottom of the page there is an option to have an even money wager against this guy if you use your bankroll and system to make >$15 hour with a preset amount of rolls you want to do in the span of the month. Let me know what you think of this!

After pointing that out, I want to highlight to you that there is no way your system (or anyone else's) would ever work on a long computer simulation using it's random number generator. Having said that, even though I'm very math oriented, I think there are some things that make tables hot and cold and streaky. I think there might, just maybe, be some way to mathematically corner these streaks on a real table and your work with the Zuma book is certainly interesting!

[bobthetree]

Even if you "beat" the zuma book, a word of caution....

I am at least a little interested in seeing if anyone has a betting system that could beat 60k rolls from zuma. Although I'm afraid any "solution" would just have so many rules, that they have basically over fitting the curve - described in mathematical terms here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfitting.

The long and short of it is that if you spend enough time with a set of rolls that you could make rules to capture almost all of the good streaks and avoid all the bad ones. If you have too many rules then it is only going to "fit" on this set of 60k rolls.

While it was a statistically relevant amount of data, at some point you make so many rules that you are only looking at small chunks. Another 60k set of rolls would break a system like that completely in half (And probably the person who spent 500 hours building such a complex set of rules, only to put themselves in the poor house).

[bobthetree]

Man, I just took the time to really look at everything in here. I want to get to touching on the MP/Heavy debate about reseeding rolls and maybe drag that discussion back out. Before I knew what I was doing I made a "book" of about 300 rolls [tossed into a cardboard layout no less] and took the seed data into wincraps. I had a simple system around betting the 6&8 which showed up each with the same frequency of the seven and laying the 4 after the point started as a hedge since I threw less of those. I know now the many mistakes with small sample size and such but it was a fun and interesting experience. That system was designed to test a $1000 bankroll and either get to >=$2000 or hit its stop loss of not having enough to put on the layout for the next hand. It won that win/loss condition 99% of the time! It was a small sample size with generous results to say the least. The SRR was miserable though - 6.25 -But I hit a ton of 6&8 at the expense of the other numbers. Ill post up a picture of the excel results later, maybe I can find the wincraps file too. I think it was up a unit $12 6&8 after 2 hits to pay for them.

[WOLFBYTE]

Irish....

You are totally wrong ! I di indeed play the 4/10 Lay-bet system hooked into Hank's System & playing at a base

unit lay bet of + $300.00 ...it is generating between + 900.00 and $7,200.00 an hour !!! ( in Zumma back testing and real Casino play ).

At South Lake Tahoe the 4/10 system ( without Hank's System ) generated + $2,400.00 of real $$$$ in 75 minutes flat !\\

Irish you need to back -test the 4/10 system with Hank's System ....to see for yourself how well it works !!!

It works because of the 66.66% player-outcome-bias that is built into the craps rules.

Exploiting the player lay-bet 4/10 bias by using a two-step neg. progression is key in generating the above hourly net returns !

Bobthetree....

Yes, it is a two step neg. progression.

The lay bets run from $300.0 for a base bet to +600.00 for a recovery bet to to + $1,200 for the loss of the $600.00 bet.

There is no ....' BIG LOSS ' using this system because the 66.66 % bias that a 7 will show before a 4/10 point is made.

Questions ?

Party-on.............

Jim

[Dylanfreake]

I`m partying , Jim.

[heavy]

Wolfebyte - I enjoy reading about the various systems you test and play - the more detail the better. Thanks for posting them.

[WOLFBYTE]

YO Kindred trolls........

Our local Super Wal Mart Manager told me they hire lots of local...' trolls' ... !!!!!???

I back-test the 4/10 System & Hank's System everyday.

I am thinking it is best to use the same base betting units I used at

Harraha's @ Lake Tahoe....+ $300.00 units.

I am stunned at how well these Systems work together !

If I stay away from my max. lay-bet of $1,200.00 as a base unit bet,

this way of betting is generating + $1,500.00 to + $3,000.00 an hour....Sweet !!!!!

Off... on bus to Indian Casino.....

Party-on

Wolfbyte

[bobthetree]

Any way you could post some more details about your method? Like maybe a list of bullet points that cover all of the rules and conditions you use?

[SHOOTITALL]

Curosity got me again WB: IF you are going to the Indian joint, are you using this on Card Craps and does it work as well on this deviation from standard craps? I have been looking at the don't systems lately. So far, the most promising seems to be DF's rendition of Professor H's system.
That is a base bet and lay odds, one loss per shooter.

(DF) I won 19 times and lost 26 times , but ended up with an $81 win for the session.