The point is established, What is your strategy?

[dblayout]

Personally I like to start each shooter (DI or random) with a $12.00 6 & 8. Either take it all the way down or at least drop to $6.00 6 & 8 after the first hit. But if they dont hit 6 or 8 in the first 3 toss's, I turn 'em off. But thats just me.

[CrapsGenius]

I don't understand why EVERYONE does not use the 5-count strategy. It eliminates the 57% of shooters who 7-out before making 5 rolls (point numbers). Anything that makes you lose less money is a good idea.

This is very smart to wait, but also try to incorporate what numbers the shooter is making during that 5 count. I hate it when I see a shooter rolling 3x 5's, 6, 5 and then I see people start to bet $25 on the 4,8,9&10.

I find it best to also follow the shooters trend. If shooter rolls 5's then bet the 5's. There was a shooter that rolled 12 10's many hard way 10's. Cash in on that. just two days ago "PUMA" a regular shooter at the casino rolled 10 6's and 7 of those were back to back and many hard way 6's.

I find his shooting was unbelievable and started to cash in on his hard sixes.

[Mad Professor]

I find it best to also follow the shooters trend. If shooter rolls 5's then bet the 5's. There was a shooter that rolled 12 10's many hard way 10's. Cash in on that. just two days ago "PUMA" a regular shooter at the casino rolled 10 6's and 7 of those were back to back and many hard way 6's.

I find his shooting was unbelievable and started to cash in on his hard sixes.

Hi CG,

The casino that you play at quite often, it's initials wouldn't be C-B would it?


MP

[BoilerM8KR]

Irish,

We get it, you don't like the 5 count. I'm not advocating it because I read about it in some book. I believe there is some math behind it but I guess I'm just dense because as you pointed out each roll is an independent event. Although the last time I checked we all seem to be interested in a negative expectation game that we all believe we can beat with a little skill and some smarts. We also get that based on your description of what a skilled DI is and the fact that you rarely bet on others, that you consider yourself a skilled DI. Why does it feel like a lot of your comments are condescending toward others on the forum? Maybe that's just how you roll. I don't believe in voodoo or that the moon is made of cheese and I probably haven't been playing craps as long as you have. I am a 43-year old Engineer who is married and has 3 kids and grew up in the Midwest and made my first trip to Las Vegas about three years ago. I played only Blackjack on my first trip and played Craps on my second Vegas trip and I was hooked.

I'm not advocating betting on every shooter because I don't do that myself. The last time I checked, craps is random game and I'm pretty sure that, with an attempt to influence the dice or not, we are all tossing two cubes bounding down a table and those cubes sometimes take funny bounces and just about anything can happen. I've been playing craps for two years now and I've been trying to learn everything I can through books and participating in this forum, as there is a wealth of information here (thanks Heavy and all the others - You too Irish). I'm sure that you know a lot more about this game and the effort and skill required to beat it than I do.

A month or so ago, I found myself playing (in Windsor) and ran into a couple of kids that were about half my age. While I don't consider myself to be an expert by any stretch, I found myself wanting to give some advice to one of the kids that looked to be about 22 years old. You could tell that he had been working on his shooting as he had a nice controlled shot. He would set for the 7 on the come-out and then switch to the 3-V for the Point Cycle. He hit several 7's on the come-out the first two times I saw him shoot. I generally try to avoid giving anyone unsolicited advice as I'm not a big fan of receiving it myself. The table was ice cold and the kid was betting the pass line for every shooter and saying that he just knew things were going to change soon. I eventually broke my own rule and we quietly talked about his shooting and play in general. I tried to tell him that he had a nice shot and that so far I thought that he was the best shooter at this particular table. I told him that he didn't need to bet on every shooter and that sometimes it's more important to "tread water" and simply wait for your own turn to shoot again. I also suggested he think about parlaying his winnings on the come-out for one more hit if he was going to shoot for 7's on the come-out and then regress to his original bet if he was successful in hitting back to back 7's. He thanked me and said he hadn't heard of that and that was the end of my advice to a 22 year-old on that particular day.

We've never met and who knows - we might get along great, or we may not, and I'm okay with it either way. Maybe I'll run into you at one of Heavy's seminars sometime soon. Hey, I also wanted to let you know that I'm half Irish. Well, wait a minute that might not be technically correct. My Mom was born in Belfast and that's actually in Northern Ireland which is officially part of United Kingdom so I guess I'm actually one half Northern Irish. If I do have the opportunity to meet you, I'm going to shake your hand and introduce myself and we can discuss some things in person. Take care and best of luck at the tables!

BoilerM8KR

PS. from your Avatar I find myself picturing you as a 21-year old skateboarder who likes to skateboard in the Park where they post the "NO SKATEBOARDING" Sign. I know that you are not likely to be a 21-year old skateboarder, but the avatar just seems to give off that "I'm going to skate wherever I want to" vibe. Don't know if anyone else gets that feeling too? L8TR

[gargoil]

Wow, I'm not touching THAT with a 10ft pole!!!

Me too. I'd rather go back to talk about Biased dice then to get involved in this. See what you started TT... You need to change your avatar to

[wudged]

irish, thank you!

[gargoil]

I would like to say that I met Irish on my first seminar with HEAVY back in November of last year. I have been practicing so called DI for about 4 months before that and thought I knew a thing or two about throwing the dice. I showed up to class (Irish, Coach, Heavy and other class mates can vouch for that) and my throw was shit. After the 5th roll Irish stopped me and went to work on my stance, set, everything. Heavy piled on for my breathing and throw and Coach later on the betting strategy.... Irish had me tied up like a pretzel when throwing the dice but I did not take that the wrong way. 15 years of experience beats 4 months any day of the week and 10 times on the weekend.

I came back home and practiced what he and other coaches showed me and from that moment on I will always be grateful to him and the rest of the coaching team on this forum.

Sure he can be an "asshole" (sorry Irish) sometimes but he does have something to teach and I for one would listen to an asshole who can make me better at something rather than a polite person who can teach me nothing.

Just saying it like it is.

[Bankerdude80]

I met Irish in November too. He also provided great insight into what I thought was a good stance, toss, and throw. My ego took a beating. He basically told me I had no influence on the dice, that I tossed a decent hand, but it was all random. He then proceeded to instruct me in stance, grip, mechanics, and toss. It was back to the drawing board for me. I learned a great deal and appreciate the time he spent "schooling" me. I have to devote much more time practicing my toss. I interpret his condescension as sarcasm, and have no issue with it since my sense of humor runs along those lines anyway. He was sincere and steadfast in his opinion. Something I can respect. You can count on him as being the one in the room that will call out anybody hawking BS or embellishing a story.

My two cents anyway.

[BoilerM8KR]

Irish,

Fair Enough and thanks for breaking it down for me and starting with the easy stuff first (What a relief). I hope you're not one of those "Dish it out but can take even a hint of Criticism" guys? No need to say any more about those type of guys. I hear what you're saying and it sounds like you're frustrated about a lot of stuff that's gone on for a long, long time. I've been on Heavy's site for less than 2 years. If you're frustrated from the last 15 years, you've got to take that up with someone else. Let me be clear, I am not selling anything, marketing anything, or trying to convince anyone to change the way they should play craps and I am not claiming to be an expert. I'm an apc forum member who apparently made a ridiculous comment that many found to be offensive (50 lashes for anyone who mentions the F&$E count ever again). If you want to take a condescending tone with people to make your point, go for it and be true to yourself. I do believe in DI. I'm sensing that maybe you think I'm somebody that I'm not, trying to sneak in and steal some influence away from your cause. I'm not. I've been part of this forum because I have an interest in learning as much as I can from a wide variety of people, who have a wide variety of opinions, and have been doing this a lot longer than I have. I'm certain my contributions to this site pale in comparison to yours - no arguments here.

If You and Irish Setter are one and the same (and I'm guessing you might be but I'm not sure) I understand that you have contributed greatly in the DI Arena and I'm not knocking any of those contributions. I've read a lot of comments by you on this site and a lot of Irish Setter articles on other sites that contain a lot of great stuff. Hell, some of those articles got me excited about giving this DI thing a shot. Regarding your second paragraph (the harder one), I’m going to need some help because to be honest I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this one and maybe I'm just not that bright. But in my defense you did tell me this one was going to be harder to understand than the first one. It sounds like I've been lumped in with: the poor student with a poor toss who doesn't listen and anyone else who ever made a comment that you didn't agree with category. Fantastic! I have no clue what the "Super" handle reference means but maybe inside jokes (and/or insults or whatever type of shot that is) are just part of Irish being Irish. Maybe you "Walk on Water" and then again maybe you don't. I made no comments on House Advantage, Superstition, or Due Number Theory. I grew up playing sports and it's fair to say I enjoyed the competition. I'm 43 years old and don't play sports any more (other than some golf) and maybe I miss that competition. Maybe Craps for me is a chance for me to compete against the Casino. If I'm going to do that I've got to put myself in a position where I try to limit the HA in every way I can. I'm an Engineer and my wife says I have a tendency to over analyze everything. I understand the House Advantage and I would be a fool to ignore it and that's just not how I play, but you wouldn't know that because you've never seen me play.

In my last post, I pointed out a condescending tone, which you acknowledged as fair. I stated some facts about myself and how I play. I pointed out that I don't like to give advice, but found myself telling some kid I don't even know not to bet on every shooter and save his money for betting on himself and his own controlled shot. I don't believe that I called you an ogre (there's that precision thing). My 10-year old daughter got a snowboard for Christmas and what do you know, I just purchased one myself to give it a try which might end up being a dumb move (it is also crazy ironic seeing that the snowboard is a cousin of the skateboard). You and I might not be as far apart on our craps beliefs (or other beliefs) as one might think. But hey thanks for throwing me into some category of every apc forum member that ever made a comment that offended Irish. I'm thinking about changing my avatar to something like: Eff U To. It's intended to be an acronym for - EFFective Underhand TOss. No worries as I'm just kidding about the avatar. Heavy, thanks for this site.

Stay Classy San Diego!

BoilerM8KR - OUT

[Maddog]

I've tried to stay out of this thread because it is a topic that has been hashed and re-hashed and horse-re-beat-beyond-pulp so many times that it just becomes silly. But I still get the feeling that the main concept is being missed. The five-count is NOT a forbidden topic, it is the outrageous claims of how the five-count helps that are being refuted.

There is really only one correct statement for the five-count and that is:

I like using the five count because it helps me keep my money off the table and thereby stretching my buy-in over a longer period of time. [PERIOD]

But if someone says "I think the 5 count is a good way to go", then the question is "Why"? And the only acceptable answer is the one above.

If the person claims that with the 5 count they lose less, then that is bullshit, except for the notion that "it keeps the money off the table so it can't be lost"... (which then leads to the logic of a six count, a seven count, a 100 count, not entering the casino, etc.)

If the person claims that with the 5 count they win more, again bullshit. The five count did not change any conditions at the table, other then it kept your money off the table so it could not be lost, and it could not WIN. You could just as easily stand there and count to 500 and then start betting (or one of Irishs more colourful 'wait-to-start' strategies)

If the person claims that with the 5 count, they skip over the "short-hand" shooters and target the "long-hand" shooters, then once again, bullshit. Time and time again it has been both mathematically and demonstratively proven that the shooter is just as likely to seven-out on the sixth toss, the seventh toss, the eight toss, etc, as it is for them to seven out on the 2nd or 3rd toss.

Again, and I know I can speak for Irish as well on this, WE CAN CARE LESS ABOUT THE FIVE COUNT. If it works as a tool for you, then have at it, use it, enjoy it.

Just DONT try to make claims that the 5 count "helps" the better, increases the chances to win, provides for an advantage, qualifies shooters, or any of that other hogwash (voodoo, moon-cheese, pixie-dust). It is a tool to help keep money off the table, plain and simple.

[Blackcloud]

UNHH!!BC think the 5 count is just fine "IF" you wish to stand at a craps tub indefinitely doing nothing other than producing fatigue, which does not improve your game

[realtime]

So snakeeyes,

Are you saying you have renounced the 5 Count that you once embraced??

[luxlogs]

You can Lead a Horse to Water
But You can't make Him Drink

You can Tell the Sheeple Facts
But You can't make Them Think

[Bankerdude80]

Let me hear how others in here would qualify shooters. Also how do you qualify yourself?

I try not to bet on every shooter. As Heavy says, "The best bet on a Randy is no bet at all." I have found that I have consistently lost past sessions whenever I partook of betting on all the other players at the tables (defined as making small wagers on each and every shooter). My bankroll does much better playing at a empty table or a table with two or three shooters max. When a table fills up with a crowd, it takes FOREVER for the dice to get back to me. Fatigue sets in and due to my impatience, my mood takes a turn for the worse. I start to NOT enjoy the game. At that point, it's time for me to move on.

That is not to say that if I spot a trend or if I'm inkling for some action I wait my turn. I will jump in if it starts to look good. I will usually sit out the first come-out and wait for a point to be established. Once the point is established I wait one roll for the PSO (Point-Seven Out). I then wait for a box number to be thrown (no junk). I will then venture out with a table minimum wager on the six or eight, sometimes both. I will then collect the money wagered first to recover my investment before I start pressing. After pressing, I will start to spread out my bets based on the numbers that have been trending (trend defined as two or more of the same number thrown). If the shooter makes the first point, I will put a passline bet out with 1x odds for the next point. If it is a good roll, I will press the odds on the passline with some of the profit from my place bets.

I do not bet on everyone, I trust my intuition which sometimes bites me back. I will jump in the game with shooters who I have seen toss successfully and have had prior good hands. My bankroll currently is not capable of supporting a Regressive Strategy at this point and I know I'm paying for it at times. Maybe I'm too risk averse? I just do not have the confidence in other qualified shooters to make a place bet for $205 across or for even $80/$85 inside. I realize there is a degree of risk with my methods, but hey it is called gambling isn't it? I'll get there eventually.

I qualify myself in a similar way. Like everyone else, there are those PSO moments. I will bet the passline and establish the point. I'll place 1x odds on the passline bet. If I PSO, I haven't lost much. I wait for a box number to show, then I'll make my place bets which will be heavy on my signature numbers. Since I'm shooting, I will put additional odds on the passline bet at this time. I then work towards my goal of a 60+ roll. I have yet to reach my goal.