The All, Small or Tall Bet

[wudged]

No, they do not pay true odds. The DC pays even money. If you decide to lay odds in addition to the DC, that portion pays true odds.

10,000 $1 DCs traveling to the 10 have an expected win of $6,666.67 for an EV of $13,333.33
10,000 $1 DCs traveling to the 10 have an expected win of $5,454.55 for an EV of $10,909.09

[pradice]

Sorry Wudged:

Of course you are right.. A flat bet dc traveling to a 10, is a better bet than the same bet traveling to a 6.

I meant to say a lay bet has the same long term payout on any number, as the odds will correct themselves.. GIve or take some funky vig.

I had my double hernia surgery just over a week ago. Everything went fine, but until my pain pills are gone, maybe I should be banned from any gaming venue or forum !!! Oh I forgot I have already been banned once already this year !!!

SOrry bout the obvious mistake, I know better..

take care
pradice

[wudged]

Ouch! Here's to a speedy recovery!

[Craps75]

My wife hit the ATS twice in one night. The second time she hit it she rolled every number on the table again except for the 3 and the 11.

I've never personally hit the bet but I will usually toss a $1 on each one when I am shooting.

[Steen]

I've received a number of requests to add the All, Tall, Small bets to WinCraps, so I'm in the process of doing just that. However, I've not yet encountered them myself so I have a few questions those who have.

As I understand:

- these bets must be made at the beginning of the shooter's hand
- these bets lose immediately if a 7 is rolled and can't be re-bet until the next shooter
- "Small" wins immediately if 2,3,4,5, and 6 are rolled before 7
- "Tall" wins immediately if 8,9,10,11,and 12 are rolled before 7
- "All" wins immediately if 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,and 12 are rolled before 7
- Winning bets can't be re-bet until next shooter (iow, when you win, your bet comes down until a 7-out)
- "Small" and "Tall" pay 34 to 1, "All" pays 175 to 1
- Bets can't be called Off or on
- Bets always work on the come-out roll
- Bets once made can't be removed (iow, they're treated as contract bets)

I called Sam's Town (Vegas) and confirmed that they have these bets and they operate this way. Although it would seem you should be able to make such bets at any time, I can see that it would be a nightmare for the boxman to keep track of whose bet had rolled which numbers, so it makes sense to have them all start at a common point in time such as the beginning of a shooter's hand. However, why they should be considered contract bets is a mystery to me. I can't see that the house gives up any advantage by allowing players to remove these bets before resolution. Also, I confirmed that Small/Tall pay 34 to 1 (35 for 1) but never got a straight answer about "All". Anyone encountered these bets at any places other than Sam's Town?

I'm also adding three other prop bets:
- "4 four rolls no 7"
- "7 point 7"
- "point 7"

Any encounters with these?

Steen

[Craps75]

The encounters that I have had with the ATS bet at GoldStrike in Tunica, you could immediately replace the bet after the seven rolled even if it's on the same shooter. Also if no one is on the bet you can place a bet on it at any time during a roll. However once one person is on the bet no one else can place a bet on the ATS until the seven shows, unless they place their bet at the same time as the original ATS bettor.

[lucky2bALady]

Does anyone know of a site or list that shows all the different craps bets at certain casinos. This is my favorite bet but barely see it in my travels.

[Golfer]

I don't think there is such a site. Wizard of odds will show you the odds for each of these.

[wudged]

"All" actually pays 174:1 according to http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/ (where you can find rules for almost all craps side bets)

The rules about only placing the bets on a new shooter vs. after any 7 differ from casino to casino, in my experience.

As far as removing the bet, I guess the casino doesn't want you removing/replacing the bet over and over waiting for 2/12 to hit first. Not that it changes the edge at all, but as you said it is a real pain for the box having to mark off each number and that would only add to the confusion.

[Steen]

The encounters that I have had with the ATS bet at GoldStrike in Tunica, you could immediately replace the bet after the seven rolled even if it's on the same shooter. Also if no one is on the bet you can place a bet on it at any time during a roll. However once one person is on the bet no one else can place a bet on the ATS until the seven shows, unless they place their bet at the same time as the original ATS bettor.

I called GS and confirmed. I think this approach makes more sense and is just as easily administered by the boxman since the marked numbers are cleared after any 7. I would've thought that a bettor could not make a bet at any random time because the boxman would be marking numbers as they roll. However, it seems that they don't start marking numbers until someone has made a wager and therefore I can see why they allow these bets to be made at any time if there are no wagers on them. It's a curious twist in my opinion. I would think that marking the numbers even without wagers would be preferred in order to help sell the bets. When players are visually reminded of the numbers being made, they might be tempted to give'em a try.

I also confirmed that they are treated as contract bets (for no logical reason other than that's how they were designed and approved) and that they pay 34 to 1 and 175 to 1.

Steen

[Steen]

"All" actually pays 174:1 according to http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/ (where you can find rules for almost all craps side bets)

The rules about only placing the bets on a new shooter vs. after any 7 differ from casino to casino, in my experience.

As far as removing the bet, I guess the casino doesn't want you removing/replacing the bet over and over waiting for 2/12 to hit first. Not that it changes the edge at all, but as you said it is a real pain for the box having to mark off each number and that would only add to the confusion.

Yes, I saw the payoffs on the wizard's "Side Bets" page but I also saw different payoffs on some different sites. Both Sam's Town and GoldStrike told me they pay 175 to 1 on the "All" bet but I'm sure you're right that the payoffs vary as they do with many prop bets.

So here's a scenario/question that comes to mind:

A player makes $1 wagers on "Small" and "All". The numbers 2,3,4,5, and 6 are rolled and "Small" wins. The Small wager comes down and cannot be re-bet at this time. The shooter next rolls 8,9,10,11, and 12. Now the "All" wager wins and comes down. Given the logic that a bet can be made anytime that there are no wagers on Small, Tall, or All, I would think that the board would be cleared and bets could be re-made even though a 7 had not been rolled. Anyone seen this?

Steen

[Michael]

I saw this at Gold Strike but only once.

[pradice]

Hey Steen:

The only way I have seen this bet handled, is that once a shooter wins, he/she can no longer bet the ATS during that hand.

I have never seen the ATS bet stay standing after a seven is rolled on the come out. I know some say it happens, but I think it is a huge mistake on the part of the casino.

MP: Leaving the ATS bet standing after a 7 come out roll, would that not change the odds considerably?

good luck to all
pradice

[al_falcons]

Steen, I believe you can buy the bet again if the shooter rolls a point, then a come out 7 and kills the bet. I have been asked if I want the bet back, but never have after the first loss. Also the bets are always paid out at the end of the hand or after the All was hit. I don't think if you hit the small or tall, they will stop the roll to pay you out, they let the roll go and pay out at end. I am sure someone who plays in MS will know exactly when they pay it out, but I think it is after the All was hit or end of hand. That doesn't matter at all for WinCraps though, you could pay it in the middle no problem.

[Mad Professor]

MP: Leaving the ATS bet standing after a 7 come out roll, would that not change the odds considerably?

Hi Pradice,

That’s a great question.

The house edge on the Small and Tall bet is 7.76%, while the house-edge on the All bet is 7.99%.

~If a casino does not count Come-Out 7's as an ATS-loser (if no other numbers have yet been rolled); then the house-edge against the bet doesn't change.

What it does change however is the casino's 'hold' on this wager (which would increase substantially) if initial Come-Out 7's counted as losers, and if the casino allowed ATS-replacement bets during the Come-Out.


MP

[Steen]

Steen, I believe you can buy the bet again if the shooter rolls a point, then a come out 7 and kills the bet. I have been asked if I want the bet back, but never have after the first loss. Also the bets are always paid out at the end of the hand or after the All was hit. I don't think if you hit the small or tall, they will stop the roll to pay you out, they let the roll go and pay out at end. I am sure someone who plays in MS will know exactly when they pay it out, but I think it is after the All was hit or end of hand. That doesn't matter at all for WinCraps though, you could pay it in the middle no problem.

It seems there's a lot of variation on these bets. I called NYNY and was told that they also wait to pay until a 7 rolls which contrasts with others who pay immediately.

So ... I think what I'll do is build these ATS bets using fairly liberal criteria regarding when to initiate and when to pay. Specifically:

- Numbers will not begin marking off until a wager is made on a bet that requires them
- "Small" wagers can be initiated at anytime that numbers 2,3,4,5, and 6 are all unmarked
- "Tall" wagers can be initiated at anytime that numbers 8,9,10,11, and 12 are all unmarked
- "All" wagers can be initiated at anytime that all numbers are unmarked
- Payoff will be immediate when respective numbers have rolled
- Bets will lose and numbers will be cleared on any 7
- Numbers will be cleared when there's no longer a wager relying upon them

So for example, if there's a wager on "Small" and 2,3,4,5,6 should roll then it'll win immediately. If there are no wagers on "All" requiring these numbers, then the small numbers will be cleared and "Small" can be re-bet immediately. However, if any wagers exists on "All" then the numbers will not be cleared and "Small" can't be re-bet until a 7 appears. This is due to the board having only one set of displayed numbers for marking. It would be easy enough to have three set of numbers on the computer but I don't think you'd see it at a real table because of the onerous task of marking them all.

This should accomodate most configurations. Those desiring to simulate stricter criteria can just apply them as necessary (for example, only make the bets after a 7). I'm also tempted to make thes bets removable as I can't see any reason to make them contract bets.

Thoughts?

Steen

[memo]

When I play at Bellagio, they pay a winner no differently as ...say, a hard eight..
Immediately.

I went to NYNY and made the small...
Expecting something similar, I asked for my payout. The stick said to keep shooting, they would get to it
And, they paid with the hand ending seven.

Same company, different process.
Lot of variation going on. I do not think either way is incorrect.

They all let you replace the bet with a come out seven.
As for spotting the numbers when no one is playing...While I agree, it should be used as a tool for enticement. I believe that to be just plain laziness.
Same goes for the fire bet...I do not see them mark it when no one bets it.

Memo

[pradice]

Atlanta falcon:

Anywhere I have ever played the ATS bet, when any 7 is rolled at any time, the bets are taken down and all players have the opportunity to put em back up, or place new ones, either on same player or the new shooter. I have always seen (where I have played) the small or tall is paid right then, like any bet. Probably smart casino psychology, the more money in the players hand, more pressure/new bets made by said player during that hand. Don't know about the "Beau"..

MP:
~If a casino does not count Come-Out 7's as an ATS-loser (if no other numbers have yet been rolled); then the house-edge against the bet doesn't change.


MP: I understand the theory of "every roll is independent" would support your conclusion, BUT we know over time the true odds of the X out of 36 numbers reveal themselves. I know I have lost hundreds of ATS bets from come out 7's. From my experience, I think it would increases the players odds considerably when the come out 7 doesn't take your bet away.. I'd love to try it !!!

This might be hard to calculate with empirical validity... None the less if the casino was leaving up the ATS bets after a come out 7, I would be more inclined to put them $3 across !!!

pradice

[Alohajonny]

After reading much about the come out seven I called the Golden Nugget and spoke to the pit. He verified that all bets are supposed to come down. During our session there I only remember once where I was shooting I tossed a comeout seven. I had a dollar on each and a dollar on each for the dealers. The dealers probably had a total of eight to ten dollars on each. After the call of seven I dropped three dollars in the proximity of the pass line. My dealer looked at me after paying the line and said, "What's that?" I said I wanted to go back up on the ATS. His response was, "We don't play that game here." He wouldn't touch the money or barely even look at it. So what did I do?... I did what any greedy guy would do... take back my money and pretend like nothing happened. I don't know why but hey, who's gonna argue with free money... a Mulligan in craps is great!

[twizforpros]

I have a story...

Last year I was at Sam's. It was my first trip to Vegas in forever. Playing so seldom I'm like a rank beginner, nervous, dropping the dice, etc. But I'd recently read about DI techniques and decided to try and set the dice the same way for each roll - what could it hurt, maybe I'd look like I knew what I was doing? Anyway, I'm betting Pass Line and two place bets, the roll seemed to be taking a long time, and a gentleman next to me kept saying, "Can you make a 12? Can you make a 12?" He was trying to explain to me why making a 12 was important and finaly said it would make him over $100 (or maybe he said over $200 - I was trying to focus on throwing the dice all the way to the other end of the table without them going off the table - one of my favorite tricks). Anyway, a 12 came, lots of commotion, the gentleman thanked me, and I was still puzzled about what sort of a bet it was that could make so much $$$ on one number. He said if I thought $200 was a lot, I should wait and see one of the payoffs (they did seem to be taking a long time). Sure enough, one happy gentleman threw me three $25 chips - it was the best win I had all night.

I'd never heard of the ATS, and didn't know of its existence until I read Heavy's post. That must have been what I rolled. Next time I go to Sam's LV I'll certainly bet it.