The Dark Side personality. Worth it?

[Spartan6]

I recently started playing the Dark Side, and I think that I am a complete failure at it.

Hi. New here, but really like the Forum.

I'm not a Craps newbie but, after a long lay-off, have recently decided to try to get better skilled at it. So, I purchased the "Knockout Craps" strategy, studied for hours, practiced it (simulator), and generally re-learned the game. The "Knockout Craps" is a don't-side grinder approach.

So here is what happened. I went to Charlestown, WV, mid-day on Saturday. Not crowded. One table was packed. The other was obviously struggling, and eventually everyone left. I figured it was a perfect opportunity to start my "don't" strategy as the only player, and approached the table. The strategy calls for equal pass/don't pass line bets, then leveraging the don't with Odds, once you have a point. The only thing that can hurt you on the come-out is a 12.

I start off by rolling two straight 12s. Awesome.

No problem. The strategy calls for a bankroll of $1200, which I had, and I was ok. I finally get a point, and get a DC number up. I promptly knock off my DC number, then hit the point. Awesome.

I do it again - get another number and a DC set up (after losing one to an 11). And then I promptly knock down the DC number and hit my point again. And then I do the same thing a third time! Three straight points! Three straight DC numbers knocked down! No one else at the table but me.

The strategy calls for increased bets and increased odds, so I was now down over $300. The dealers are all awkwardly gazing at the felt, as if they don't want to continue to watch this train wreck. The pit boss looks over at me and says, "Hey, I just want you to know that we're all pulling for a seven for you." LOL.

So, I finally hit a seven on the next number (after knocking down my DC box bet again), and then some dude shows up that they all know. Great old guy, big smile, Scottish accent. The party was starting! I bet the don't and he rolled the dice on the right side. The smiling Scottish sucker knocked down my DC and hit his number. Everybody got happy, more people joined the table.

At that point, I just decided that it was not fun. I switched to the right side, stayed there for hours, and pretty much lost my entire bankroll. But I had a pretty good time. I finally caught a hot shooter right at the end, and made back about $700 on his roll, then quit.

Sorry for the long story, but here is my point: I don't think that I am emotionally suited to play the Dark side. I like the fun and excitement of long rolls, and money being made on every roll. Of course, I can hear people saying, "I like making money. Screw the fun." I get it.

I thought a lot about this as I was driving home ($550+ poorer), and wondered if I'll ever be able to make consistent money at this game. If the Dark strategy is the way to go, then I don't know if I can stick to it. I don't want to be the quiet loner next to the dealer, trying to play against the rest of the table.

For you experienced Dark side players..... Do you enjoy it? Or does the money just make it worth it?

Thanks,
Spartan6

[SHOOTITALL]

Well Spartan: First, welcome aboard to the best craps site around. Heavy is getting packed for a road trip so he may or may not chime in. Here is my take on your session.
When playing the dark, heavy has created a "transition move" and "heat seeker" that lets you migrate from the don't to the do while playing the don't if the table turns. It is here someplace. If I can find it, will shoot it to you via the email function of this site. I do not keep up with where stuff is at. You can probably also find it in the search function of this board.
I am not familiar with KnockOUt craps but I am pretty sure it ain't nothing new. You would have been miles ahead by buying Sam Grafstein's book, "the dice doctor". Then, you mentioned that your psychic and personality may not be suited for the don't side. That is entirely possible as like +80% of the craps player are right side players. This is something you just have to get comfortable with. Of course going to a craps game after a long time layoff is expecting a miracle to happen anyways. I am sure there are board members in your neck of the woods that will do a session or two with you. Just post when you are going on the hookup board and correspond via the email function.
I hope Heavy will jump in here and finish this up.
Oh, yea. Your post is not very long. You should see the long ones.
Last but not least, join the Dice Institute board also. There is the monthly CHAT NIGHT coming up Wednesday, so join in post questions, answers, have fun. It is very informative and Mad Professor is the host. There will probably be +20 like minded folks having a great time. The particulars are located in Expert Speaks section under MP's not so random thoughts. Join the board, get your computer tuned to the chat site and join in. sia

[London Shooter]

Hi Spartan, I have to say I am not a don't player but one thing has struck me about your post is not so much being emotionally suited to the don'ts, but more not being emotional suited to the betting strategy you adopted.

Increasing bets after losers is to my mind something that should be avoided unless you are the kind of person with iron discipline and/or don't mind the prospect of increasingly small returns relative to bankroll invested thus far each time you roll the dice.

Personally I just don't have the stomach for such a strategy, and I'm sure many others don't either. At worst it can easily lead you to a massive "on tilt" session and that rarely ends up well.

[heavy]

I love playing the Don'ts when things are going my way. Back toward the end of last year my bride and I took an anniversary trip to Vegas and I played the Don'ts almost exclusively. Nothing like getting DC's established on four or five numbers - then seeing the devil jump up.

The articles on transition moves and the heat seeker are either in the Experts Speak column or the Betting Strategies sub-board. I won't get more specific than that because it'll do you good to read everything there while looking for them.

[Golfer]

Spartan6, welcome.

Interesting points. I will offer some comments as follows.

I started playing dark years ago when I realized I would soon be out of money and need to give up the game. I love to play but you need money. The rightside is more fun, no doubt, however the fun ain't always to be found. Many have written on the % 's applicable but "Chop" is the best description of how things go about 80% of the time. It is that wonderful time (for the casino) where money is lost simulataneously by both rightsiders and darksiders. 10 % is good for rightsiders and 10% is good for darksiders. For me, learning the Don't meant I could keep playing craps.

You really have to wrap yourself around the concept of getting the casino's money........not taking money from the rightsiders. That's how they feel.

These days I play a lot less than I did and I play both sides. A few weeks ago I played and made a 4 pt fire winner.......starting the hand shooting from the dont'. Luxlogs and his bride were witnesses. Yeah that sucked. I did transition finally after the 3rd point but it wasn't fun. I did cut some of my loss. On the other hand I have had several Fire Bet winners of 4 numbers and have hit a 5 Pt winner.

Most of us here are "action" junkies. Our friend Dylanfreak is not. He is an advantage craps player with a steel discipline that has him winning in craps without shooting the dice. Is his style for all? No, but one can make variations on a theme.

Keep with the darkside as a tool. It will not work every session. It does make you a complete player and you will survive to play longer and another day. Playing craps offers a rush. Having money is a bigger rush. Don't be one dimensional.

Oh yeah.........use hop bets.


Good Luck

Golfer

[wild child]

.
Spartan 6

Welcome to the club....

There are board Axis Power Craps (A P C ) members actively playing
in just about every casino market and some ships at sea...

fact is Heavy's board seems to have an international appeal....

Wish it could become an Olympic sport......( Olympic WINNER SPORT )...anyone

THE DO NOT'S aka: THE DARK SIDE
require some adjustment to one's GAME PLAN ( STRATEGY) to pull it off with consistent success

To best gain advantage over other people;s tossing,
taking up position at the inside corner (or turn ) makes WAGER PLACEMENT EASIEST ....

A) The D/C BOX is very convenient
...a) also handy for placement of DON'T PASS WAGER & LAY

B) Monitoring your DARK SIDE WAGERS is better visioned

C) You are far better to communicate LAY WAGER INSTRUCTIONS
..and all other conversation to the dealer next to THE BOX PERSON

D) Your DARK SIDE WAGERS are less likely to interfere with the shooter
...to the dealer

YOU MAY OR MAY NOT PREFER TO SHOOT FROM THIS

STRAIGHT OUT PORTION

OF THE CRAPS TABLE

>>> This is a choice best determined by each individual<<<<
There has been some discussion on the advantage/disadvantage
of making a D/P or D/C wager with the chips going to the next number rolled
.
Vs
.
Electing to LAY ONE'S DO NOT WAGER against any one specific number
The 5% commission off puts some player's sensibilities*

* the other camp weighs the 5% "overhead" as a lesser expense than loosing 100%
of the D/P D/C to an untimely SEVEN( 7) or ELEVEN **

** You pays YOUR MONEY and YOU take YOUR chances
..........................................................
let us examine what one may learn from CHARTING ( also called clocking) the table
........ .............. .................
To date OFFICIALLY only one person has set a world record of 147 ROLLS of the dice in one hand.
< NO MENTION WAS MADE OF COME OUT SEVENS TOSSED TO MY KNOWLEDGE >
......
For the PURISTS there is an approximate 17% chance for a SEVEN to show on ANY ONE TOSS
or otherwise stated an approximately 83% chance of a number other than 7 to show on any toss.
........
Let us play with the matt......

POINT SEVEN OUT occurs to some percentage..WHATEVER IT IS...

POINT,NUMBER TOSSED,FOLLOWED BY SEVEN OUT...occurs to some percentage

One may get their giggles by extending the exercise to WHATEVER.........

Diddle with the numbers enough and it seems to AVERAGE that in 3 decimal point something
a decision of THE NUMBER REPEATING OR THE SEVEN SHOWING is provident.
.( MATHEMATICALLY speaking)
.
The mathematics of tossing the ten dice combinations or tossing each of the SIX BOX NUMBERS AS POINT AND REPEATING SAID POINT NUMBER
are out to the extreme bleak side of a good time
........
Most of the math takes this to near oblivion
>>>
In practice should the DARK SIDE WAGER MAKER make a D/P on the shooter's 2nd or 3Rd
point ......THE DARK SIDE WAGER PLACER HAS A HIGH PERCENTAGE( % ) of susses fully
seeing a positive return for $ at RISK......

Perhaps the DARK SIDE WAGER PLACER may see positive returns
from the DO NOT COME D/C
WAGER(S) also

We may be able to devise a great number of DARK SIDE GAME PLANS

or even

a number of hybrid game plans

incorporating

TRANSITION MOVES

taking advantage
of both sides of THE GAME
.........
The problem with strategies or "SYSTEMS" is they are like owning a pet rattle snake.

If you forget caution or disregard the danger(s)
.
you are then playing with something that could BITE YOU

When you win greater amounts than you lose , you see a net gain......
Should it go the other way.......you may need find the economy to support YOUR LOSSES

Just me saying

Wild Child

[Spartan6]

SHOOTITALL, London Shooter, Heavy, Golfer & Wild Child,

Thank you for your kind welcome and for your thoughtful responses. You folks are great.

I like Golfer's thought that having a Don't strategy makes you a more "complete" player, so I think that is how I will approach it - just another club in the bag. I'll read more in the Forum and study up, before I make any more comments. I'd like to learn more about how to know to transition from one side to another.

I'll say one thing. Learning the Don't side has helped me better understand the math and probabilities of the game. I now know WHY I make a wager, and what to expect vs. just following a 3-point Molly strategy (..which usually winds up being a 6-point Molly..).

Thanks again,
Spartan

[bahdbwoy]

i shoot frrom the dont with inside place working on the come out then bring it down. if i 7 on the c/o then ill double the insideand hope for the best.. mean while im doing the 5-15-35-75-155 (or equivalent min bet structure) progression on the actual DP.

if im not shooting and im betting on the others then im doing DF cowtip.

[AtGame7]

Nothing like getting DC's established on four or five numbers - then seeing the devil jump up.

There is a lot of truth in that statement! I had a great short session sticking to just two Don't numbers at a time. I colored up and took a break to play a slot machine. I think I read somewhere on here that Heavy and I have the same "catch lightning in a bottle" attitude when it comes to high dollar slot machines. If I'm up a few hundred I will take a hundred and spin for the progressive jackpot. Haven't been hit by lightening, yet.

I returned to the craps table and decided to try and dabble with my version of "Dave's System" and I kept putting up DC's past my regular two. Shooter establishes his point of 4 and unlike Dave I lay odds against the 4 then he rolls a 9, then a 5, then an 8, then a 6. I've got a $10 don't bet on everything but the 10 with $30 odds against each of them. Not a tremendous amount of money, but it's more than I usually have on the layout at $200. At that point I quit placing DC's because I really started to get nervous about all those targets out there. I was gonna pull my odds down after two got hit (at least that is what I told myself). Next toss was a 10 and for a brief second I was actually happy I didn't have the DC because then I would have everything covered (but what don't player doesn't want the 10?).

At that point I honestly thought to myself (and may have quietly muttered) that this would be a tremendous time for a 7-out (hey, they all got paid once each on their box numbers, it's my turn) and sure enough the most beautiful 6-1 I had ever seen was sitting on the table!

The dealer scooped in all the right side bets, paid my line bet and announced "paying behind" and shipped me a nice stack of chips. $355 in total I think? Either way, if you think hitting your pressed 6 or 8 is fun, trust Heavy on this one. A well timed 7-out can be a lot of fun as well.

[Dylanfreake]

If I were going to put $1200 at risk per craps session, my Total Gambling Bankroll would need to be around $40,000, whether I played the Darkside or the Rightside.

[koreancowboy]

I actually learned how to play the game on the Donts, so it's all I know.

That being said, being a Darkside player fits my personality to a T. I'm very rebellious, so going against the grain is very appealing to me.

I don't think that I could ever be a rightside player...

[Knick111]

Goodmorning Korean Cowboy,

Have you tried playing the darkside and the rightside at the same time, that's the
shootitall system.

When the shooter is on a roll, you too will be on a roll with him/her.
I will let Shootitall explain his system to you.

Good luck to you next time you visit your local casino. Jaime.

[koreancowboy]

Hi Jaime,

I have not considered playing both sides, but I would be interested in doing so.

I also live in Vegas (for the moment), so it's pretty easy for me to pop in and try it out LOL

[heavy]

Ah, the crap between your ears. Never a finer example. Is fading the heat of being a Don't player worth it? My question back to you is simple. Why do you give a rats ass what anyone else thinks? You aren't at the casino to seek anyone else's approval. You're not there to make friends. You're there to win. If that means you have to swing over to the Dark Side - why not? The fact that someone else doesn't have the smarts to do it should not impact your play at all. Thoughts?

[Moe Bettor]

Exactly so. Of course if i'm shooting dark and i know somebody at the table I'll tell them if they can't see. It's up to them to bet
as they want anyway..and I might just have a 30 hand trying to go out. But it's been a long time since anybody has given the
stink eye. Seems like playing the darkside got more common or more accepted.

[Bankerdude80]

I think the darkside method of play and the care/concern by rightsiders is fading in my observations. Either players don't know what you are doing, or they know and don't care. They realize it is your money you are betting. There are always going to be arseholes at the table, so it can happen where somebody may be offended by your play, but I think it is becoming more acceptable. I often see players bet the darkside on other shooters and then switch rightside when they are the shooter. Some grumble under their breath, but that's only because the guy betting the darkside is winning on his bets and the grumbler realizes he is the chump by not betting the same way.

It's my money, I'll bet it as I see fit.

[Big O]

but I think it is becoming more acceptable

It seems so to me as well. You can still run into some guys that believe its bad juju to bet the dark side even if the shooter is unaware of what you are doing. I had a guy leave the table when i kept laying the 10 on the comeout. I was at SL1 he was straight out L. the shooter was in the R turn and tossing from the donts!

[DarthNater]

I can’t recall the last time I was taunted for either betting dark or shooting from the DP.

LOL , so I’m sure it’ll happen tomorrow now.

I saw a yellow chipper shooting DP on Thursday, while everyone else, but me, was on the PL; they lost.

DN8R

[mainframe]

Whats a yellow chipper? Never mind. I looked it up. Most casinos use yellow or orange chips to denote the $1,000 denomination/value.

So, you and a high stakes better were betting DP, with the high roller shooting from the don'ts, and the two of you are were winning at the time?

When I do dark side betting, I typically do not get verbal grief or even dirty looks from the other players at the table (at least not dirty looks that I notice). However, I do notice that a lot of right-betting (pass line) shooters try to hit my stack of chips on the DP bar.

Its funny, because among craps superstitions, table etiquette, and traditions, you have two conflicting items of conventional wisdom:

Craps superstition/tradition A: Try not to hit any chips with the dice...hitting chips supposedly produces a non-favorable outcome.

Craps superstition/tradition B: If you are shooting and have right-side bets on the layout, and someone bets the DP...try to hit their chips out of spite.

Ever hear of those two superstitions? There are so many of them: Female shooters are good luck, first time/beginner shooters are good luck. If the dice leave the table, its bad luck, etc.

[DarthNater]

So, you and a high stakes better were betting DP, with the high roller shooting from the don'ts, and the two of you are were winning at the time?

When I do dark side betting, I typically do not get verbal grief or even dirty looks from the other players at the table (at least not dirty looks that I notice). However, I do notice that a lot of right-betting (pass line) shooters try to hit my stack of chips on the DP bar.

It was interesting, when it was my turn to shoot, I was on the line mainly to protect my ATS bets using my Yo rich set. He just put down one yellow per shooter and was obviously a randy when he shot from the DP.

He would be up a few to down a few chips. He started with four yellow and two black, never bet the black. I was SO and he was next to the stick and I asked him what his win goal was? He mumbled “not to lose” and walked away to the other table.

The table was super choppy, so not a bad goal, DN8R