Reading how a few of you bet,,

[Greg]

and I wander how you guys make such good money,,, I myself bet small but cant seem to turn a profit on a reg basis. But you guys bet even less than me. With the slow cautious start its hard to see the profits yall are turning other than on hot shooters which is not present when I go.

[heavy]

How exactly do you bet? Pass line and odds? Place bets? Don'ts? Regression or progression? Prop action? Bets on every shooter or just yourself or bet differently on yourself than on others?

[mssthis1]

For starters, what do you consider good money? $20.00 per hour at the table? $50.00 per hour? more? less? Every person has a different opinion of what they consider good money.

As far as betting. On my own shooting, on a table I have a history on, I typically start with $135.00 across and a pass line bet. After I recoup the initial outlay, East coast press with the exception of the 4 and 10, which I always press enough to double the bet. If the table has been choppy or the landing zone is a minefield, I'll regress the 4 or 10 back to $25.00 if they hit at the $200.00 level. If I don't have a history on the table I start out much smaller until I get a feel for it.

On Randie I use a tiered don't pass losing progression unless the table tells me to change to the pass line. Here at home everything is 10x odds. On a $5 table I bet $5.00 DP with double odds. If it wins same bet, if it loses $30.00 odds on the next bet no matter what the point is. 3rd tier is $5.00 dp with max odds. If I lose 3 DP in a row I either wait for the next shooter, switch to the pass line, or leave depending on the table conditions. I ignore any 7 or 11 on the comeout unless someone tosses 3 in a row. In that case I quit until the next shooter.

One last thing. Whether I win or lose in any given session is irrelevant to me. If I don't like the playing conditions, the people around, me or some of the dealers, I have no problem ending a session and finding something else to do. Staying at a table longer than I want so I can grind out and claim a win is not my idea of a good time. I keep track by the year.

[Moe Bettor]

What is an east coast press?

[mssthis1]

Press approximately 50% of the winning bet. As in, $12.00 six wins, press it to $18.00.

[London Shooter]

Greg, we don't all make money playing craps.

[heavy]

. . . but I can tell you that one of the best ways to win at craps is to have your bets turned off when the seven shows. Which gets me back to the subject of charting. However, I don't want to beat that horse. Other things I'll suggest to you is that (1) the clock is not your friend and (2) you must know how to get in, get ahead, and get gone.

[Dylanfreake]

To me breaking even at a negative expectation game is great . A $1 win is thrilling .

Bet within your bankroll and leave the table when you are ahead has always worked for me.

I`m just as happy playing $5 laying single odds as I am playing $5 and laying 7x odds limiting my wagers to one loss per shooter.

A lot of folks say that is a boring way to play, but it is exciting to me.

I have no worries. I`ve even started drinking martinis (not fancy ones , just classic WC Fields ones).

I may challenge myself to come up with a way of play using a daily $500 bankroll on $5 and $10 tables just for kicks. Maybe I am getting bored.

Gail, "Bring me a martini."

WHOOPPPPPP!!!!!

"Please"

[SHOOTITALL]

"To me breaking even at a negative expectation game is great . A $1 win is thrilling ."
After a fine BBQ lunch yesterday, Heavy and I discussed this very aspect of craps, he for the money, me for the entertainment.
The actual discussion was lengthy covering not only losses but win tolerances. I suppose we will have to have another lunch to
finish up where we left off. Anyways, a good time was had by all, with most of the conversation covering craps and the different aspects
to a winning approach. So, I am 100% in agreement with my old pal DF, $1 win for 4 hours at a table is fine with me, then toke the buck.

[heavy]

Heavy: "Make my ten look like $2500."

SIA: "$9 - same bet."

Actually, I hope my old buddy never presses a bet because whenever he does the ugly number swoops down on him.

[Greg]

I have played many basic ways,, 22 inside,, 44inside,, 32 and 64 across,, press 1st hits on numbers,, press only after your investment is paid,, played don't come for a few bets nothing seems to work for me to win any money,, which I would say buying in for 300 and winning 100. It only happens on the one shooter who throws 15 to 20 times, other wise it is a slow draining of the funds. Only time I was able to win was with a larger bankroll and I played don't come 3x odds on the 4,5,9,10 no odds on a 6 or 8,, get knocked off then you times the odds you lost by 3 again example dc goes to 5 do 15 in odds if it gets knocked off the dc you had waiting goes to 5 then go 45 odds,, I was almost out of money on a decent roll and my heart was pounding but when the 7 came it was a great payoff but I cant stand the pressure. When I go to casino I have a great time and get to stay free, I usually go 2 days a month and I buy in for 200 to 300 3 or 4 times in the 2 days I am there I am real conservative and usually lose 200 or win 100 somewhere in between losing more than winning. I had a friend who played blackjack 21+3 this week and he won 750 while betting about the same per hand I was,, but the hands go so much faster. I do not enjoy playing craps making only 1 bet such as passline with odds or just betting one number like a 6.

just ranting a little. I love the mind game in craps but it seems to be impossible to figure out,,

[heavy]

Yeah, I understand that entirely. Back in the day I always bought in for at least $1000. Through the years it's gradually reduced - not because I have a smaller bankroll, but simply because I found that I played smarter (tighter) when playing with fewer chips in the rack. These days it's typically $300 - $500. Buying infor $500 I'll try to maintain a $300 loss limit. On $300 I'll go for a $200 loss limit. I'm basically looking for a minimum of a 20% win ($60 - $100) when playing hit and run sessions - and larger amounts ($150 - $300) on longer sessions. Try to limit yourself to playing the a single Don't bet on other shooters unless you've charted them and believe they have some skill. If a hand develops when you have a Don't bet on the shooter you can always tiptoe in placing the six and eight. On good shooters by pass the line bet entirely and just place bet. Incorporate a regression to lock up a profit early, then go up and out. If you've been practicing and believe you can influence the dice you should bet more on yourself - particularly if you've been tracking your rolls and have proof that you have a positive EV. There are some pretty good tips on this recent thread that might give you some other ideas. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4299 Last of all, don't play "just" craps. Play a little blackjack with your pal (although I'd avoid that 21 plus 3 game). Spend a little time at mini-bac. Make an occasional sports bet if that's available to you. Play a little poker. I won't go into the whole theory, but suffice to say that sometimes combining multiple negative expectation games can ultimately yield a positive result. Especially at high volatility games. Most of all, remember if it's not fun - it's time to run.

[London Shooter]

"I buy in for 200 to 300 3 or 4 times in the 2 days I am there I am real conservative and usually lose 200 or win 100 somewhere in between losing more than winning."

This is fairly standard for craps sessions, certainly in my experience. Small buy in and conservative betting is unlikely to win you a lot but if you keep to sensible bets you shouldn't do too much damage, unless you stand at the table for hours on end and let the HA slowly nibble you to death - yes I have been there many times

So sometimes you will get lucky and sometimes you won't. Bottom line is you aren't supposed to win and won't do in the long run unless you have an edge.

As Heavy says it's nice to mix things up a bit too. Play some BJ but stay away from that 21+3. Your friend just had one of those lucky sessions and ultimately that side beat will take your bankroll quickly like prop and centre bets will do on craps. If you want to slow the pace, pull up a seat at roulette or a full pai gow table. A lot less decisions per hour on those games.

[mssthis1]

Last of all, don't play "just" craps. Play a little blackjack with your pal (although I'd avoid that 21 plus 3 game). Spend a little time at mini-bac..

If you can find a mini bac game with several of our Asian friends that take the game seriously, you will only be risking 1 bet every 3 or 4 minutes.

[pappyvanwinkle]

I think most people covered the major points, but let me ask you, when you are betting, are you adjusting to conditions at the table? You've mentioned several strategies, but the point is no one strategy is going to cover everything, so I'd say you need to adjust to the table conditions. For example, Heavy has this Heatseeker play, I think he goes inside for one hit, takes the profit and moves it all to one number that has been hitting. He doesn't use that all the time, just if he observes a trend at the table.

There was a session at an off strip casino, we had our session waiting to cash out, ask someone watching the craps game, how things were going, and the guy says the shooter has been hitting 4 and 10's. Guess what the shooter is betting? 6 and 8. I think Heavy bought in for $40, played outside and made a bundle, never having to pick up the dice.

On the day I was leaving vegas, I went to check out the pirate themed casino for old time sake. Shooter was in the middle of their hand, I tossed out some 6 and 8 action, noticed the trend, 4, 6, 4, 9, 5, 10, 4 ... I told the dealers to move me to the 4 and 10. I made like $2000 on a randie's shooting, when they seven'd out, I was like $500 short of table max on the 4, I colored up and people were wondering how I made all that money. I was like you were all here before me and only had $10 or $25 on the 4 the whole time.

My point is, adjust to what the table/shooter are giving.

Another point, when your at the table, are you enjoying yourself? Yes, I want to make a profit, but even more so, I'd like to have a good time. Sometimes I'm just playing my own game there to entertain myself. For example, I'm after those feature bets. One LONG night in Tunica, SIA, wanted to shoot one more time, so Heavy and I joined him. I was damn tired and wasn't really going to shoot, but the dice came to me. The bet was the All-Tall Small. I kept getting within 1-2 numbers of hitting it, just for a come out winner 7 reset the bet. I reset the ATS numerous times. If I recall I made like $500 still, didn't get it, but I still enjoyed it. I could've made a lot more money, but i wasn't fixated on the bets, but bunch of people made more than I did at the table on my roll. SIA got plenty of beers, Heavy made a nice profit, even the dealers did pretty well from all the tokes we were tossing out. I'd say try not to fixate on the money, the worst thing is to play with scared money.

You should see when Heavy and I are next to each other and see our come out play.

Just some musings

Pappy

[mssthis1]

but let me ask you, when you are betting, are you adjusting to conditions at the table?
Just some musings

Pappy

I believe that if you want to consistently win or at least make the casino fight to take any money from you that is the second most important thing after making sure you are properly bankrolled.

Even if you have a toss good enough to win you have to be properly bankrolled and adjust to every table to win consistently. Just like the stock market, the craps table can easily stay illogical longer than you can maintain liquidity if you aren't willing to adapt.

Just my opinion.

[Greg]

I do play with scared money,, but enjoy the game so much,,, my way of backward thinking is that if I bet 44 inside,, and lose then best 220 inside only loses more. I have only been playing a couple days a month for about a year but I fell like I am not getting any better,, and the only way I have won is on a guy shooting a long roll. Still I haven't give up and will keep trying to learn how to read the table, the only thing I can read or understand is a 7 is coming but no way to tell when.

[London Shooter]

Never was a truer word spoken than the above. Greg, are you willing to accept greater volatility in your search for more profitable sessions?

[pappyvanwinkle]

Playing with scared money is never a good idea. We all like the big score, but in some sense it's relative. It depends on what that individual's bankroll is. Some people also confuse what is a "bankroll". I remember being in a class with Dice Coach, and when he asked a student what their bankroll was, they replied I have $x, I have another additional $y in the bank, plus I could get a cash advance of $z from my credit cards. Needless to say, we informed them, they should save up and play when they do have a bankroll.

This also goes to your willpower in some sense. There is a board member $5Bill, very good shooter, would shoot with him anytime. $5Bill loves the game of craps, but he's on a limited income. It's taken $5Bill alot of discipline to stick to his budget, not chase losses, and just as important, color up and leave when he's ahead. He's got a topic/forum you should check out, it's called "Ending up with a Win". It's about his up and down's and his visits to the casino. Should definitely check it out.

if I bet 44 inside,, and lose then best 220 inside only loses more.

Yeah probably not the best idea, that would be almost like doing a martingale, bad idea. That would be chasing your loses and hoping to make it back quickly, yeah not gonna happen for the most part. Don't know if you've ever done it there's a play called a regression, like your $44 inside, one hit, regress to $22 inside. Now technically you only have like $8 at risk, if the ugly number shows up. Could you do a play like that? In some sense it is the smart play. My main point is, to be profitable you want to minimize your exposure, while being able to capitalize on profit when you can.

Most important, get the money off the table! Often people leave too much money on the table and don't take enough off when they should've, so instead of a modest win/profit, you might end up in a big loss.

Pappy