$60 or $36

[cubfan2121]

I discovered wincraps pro about a month ago and have been experimenting with a few different scenarios that i can actually apply to live casino play.
When I ask which play is "better" i mean which would the all knowing experts in this forum play?

Bankroll $600
$10 table (this i usual table minimum at local casino)
1. Skip Come out
2. Chart table for 5 rolls (I dont do this on win craps but do when playing live)
3. Place bet $30 6 and $30 8
4. First hit reduce to $12 6+8 and place $10 five and $10 nine
5. HIt #2 collect
6. Hit #3 press winning number and sister
Then repeat 5 and 6
Moderate success on WinCrap. Seems like I win small amounts consistently then run into cold table with plenty of immediate 7 outs

Bankroll $500 (my typical casino play)
$10 table (this i usual table minimum at local casino)
1. Skip Come out $5 fire bet
2. $18 6+8
3. first hit collect and Reduce $12 6+8
4. 2nd hit collect
5. 3rd hit $10 5 and $10 field ( Iron cross )
6. Field hit collect and place $10 9
7 5,6,8 hit repeat field bet $10
8. Usually play step 5-9 by feel

This has been ok at best. Win small amounts, break even most of the time after 1-2 hours of play but when i lose its $200-$300

Comments or suggestions?

[London Shooter]

I like the first play from the $600 bankroll much better. You may want to consider whether or not to press the sister on hit #3. A lot of people just prefer to press the number that actually hits and if a number isn't paying its rent, then just leave as is. Any reason why you are charting for 5 rolls - it just seems like you place the 6&8 regardless after 5 rolls, or by charting are you simply counting the 5th roll, not looking at what numbers are hitting?

From bankroll $500 my immediate thought was urgggh a $5 firebet. There's a bankroll drain right away........ Then there's the field bet later on. Another weak bet. I understand what the iron cross is looking to achieve, but in covering all the numbers by means of a field bet you are using a pretty high vig bet, even worse if on a table that only pays double on 12.

[heavy]

Yeah, your subject line is a bit confusing. $18 each on the six and eight comes to $36.

Like LS, I like your first play with $600 buy in. Personally, I make similar plays with half the bankroll - $300. Why? Because even though I'm risking twice as much as I should with a $300 buy in - I'm only risking it for as long as it takes to get a hit on the six or eight. But if you give the shooter 3 shots at hitting the six and eight then I'd turn the bets off and wait for the next opportunity. Could be on the same shooter - after he's proven he can toss a six or eight - or could be on the next shooter.

Now, at Step 4 in that first play - instead of stringing it out telling the dealer you want $12 six, $12 eight, $10 five, $10 nine - just say "make it look like $44 inside. Makes it faster and easier for the dealer to understand.

On step six - I'd only press the winning number and not the sister. Grafstein use to say "you only back a winning horse." Press the number that's winning for you.

Another example. At Binions in Vegas a few years back I tossed a 66 number hand that included something like 23 sixes. I only tossed ONE eight in that entire hand, and it was on roll number 65.

Now, my play would probably look something like this.

1. Chart the table for a shooter tossing inside numbers and buy in when the puck is OFF.
2. By pass the come out roll and wait for the point to be established.
3. Wait one more roll before placing in any action, thereby avoiding all PSO's.
4. Place $30 six and eight.
5. First hit on either number - tell the dealer to "make my six and eight look like $18 each. At this point you have $1 at risk to win $21 on the next six or eight.
6. Second hit - same bet - locking up $20 profit.
7. Third hit - drop $3 on top of the payout and tell the dealer to "press it to $42." Only press the winning bet.
8. You can freelance from here, but I'd continue with the same bet on the non-pressed number and just collect it when it hits. On the pressed number go like this:
9. Fourth hit - $50 for $1. Fifth hit - Press to $90 and lock up $1. Sixth hit pays $105 - lock up $100 - dealer toke $5. Seventh hit - press to $180 and lock up $25. Eighth hit - collect $210. Ninth hit - drop $30 and press to $420. You can see what we're doing here. We're taking the 18 to 42 to 90 to 180. At this point you're just adding zeros to the press schedule, pressing every other hit. It's big fun when you're sitting with an $1800 six and it hits - and you drop $300 and go to $4200.

Okay, what I just described is NOT a conservative way to play. It's just ANOTHER way to play. You absolutely MUST play within your comfort zone. As long as you stick with low vig bets and lock up a profit early while maintaining good discipline you'll be fine.
2.

[heavy]

Scout - you've been playing at too many Caesar's properties. You need to take a trip out to Albuquerque sometime and experience that triple on the 2 AND 12.

[220Inside]

I also like the $500 play better. Although I might just combine steps 3 and 4 and start off with $56 inside. On first hit to 6 & 8 you can then either regress to $12 or just collect. You start off with $4 less in action in case of quick 7 out but will also collect on any 5/9 hits while waiting for that first 6 or 8.

Like LS, I'm not a fan of pressing sister numbers that have not earned their right to be pressed.

I started writing this before Heavy and Scout's posts. But I'm a fan of what Heavy outlined.

[gargoil]

I will only do the first press on the sister numbers to get me closer to my 1 for 50. After that they are on their own.

[cubfan2121]

London: I can probably use some charting tips. I fall into the trap once a 6 or 8 is tossed I feel "damn i just missed getting paid" and it always seems when i place it right after, the shooter 7s out, which just compounds my frustration. I really just try to feel the shooter out most times at my local casino I know who are regulars and who can bang out consistent numbers. My other issue is my 2nd local casino (Indiania) are filled with shooters who are more worried about how they look shaking the dice, blowing, snapping their fingers and then jumping up in the air after every roll. Seems like 9 out of every 10 shooters, shoot in this fashion and needless to say they are crummy shooters. Once there was a guy betting $100 passline bet backing it up with $5. I made the mistake of questioning his bet thinking he was confused and his reply was "I know what im doing, im just trying to paid yo"

I know the fire bet is a crummy bet but its my favorite crummy bet. There has been a few times where i play 15-20 shooters and break even then thinking " if i had not played those fire bets, Id be up $100" Since Im such a terrible shooter, only playing the fire bet when I shoot doesnt do it for me.

Heavy: So in other words stick with the 6+8 then alternate collect and press

Last question which probably is another post in itself. My bankroll/money management strategy is pretty basic: If i make $50-$100 thats good enough for me. I usually stick to a table for an hour or if a familiar shooter is shooting for the 2nd time. Im ok with breaking even, which happens more than 50 % of the time and I usually cut myself off if i lose $200-$300. But recently Ive been falling into the trap of winning my "quota" on the first roller. What gets under my skin is im usually pretty conservative with my first shooter just so i can get a feel for the table. After the shooter 7 out I then realize, I should have made X amount more if i had been a tad more aggressive. We all know where it goes from here, this usually leads to a losing session then i say to myself "should have left while i was up"
But my theory is I go to the casino with the intention to gamble and enjoy myself. Making $50 in the first 10 minutes is great but losing it afterward and then some really sucks. How do i find that happy medium of wanting to stick around and gamble and making smart money management choices?

[crapsjourney]

Great comments. You are right the last question deserves a separate post in itself.

[London Shooter]

Hi cubsfan, well I'm not the man to give you tips on charting as it isn't something I do. Heavy has written plenty on the subject though and there will be stuff on here if you search for it, though keep in mind the search function on this site is not too hot so it may require a bit of manual digging.

Winning early in a session can be quite tough. I think if you live close to a casino or have many trips or are in a market with plenty of other options then the choice to walk after a good first hand is fairly straight forward. You can quickly go home, quit knowing you are back later in the week or head off to the next venue.

If you are a more rare visitor and/or have a long journey then I agree it is tough to finish up if you hit a decent win right off the bat. Certainly something which I can be guilty of as like you I tend to go as much for the enjoyment factor as anything.......

[heavy]

A good place to look is the thread called Charting Streaks and Trends. You'll fine it in the Betting Strategies sub board. You might want to use the search function for that. You should be able to find it okay.

[KrapsNovice]

Scout - you've been playing at too many Caesar's properties. You need to take a trip out to Albuquerque sometime and experience that triple on the 2 AND 12.

I believe I read on WOV that they stopped offering triple on both numbers. Have they reversed course.

Thanks

[cubfan2121]

Heavy
checked out Charting Streaks and Trends and its good stuff
thanks for lead

[heavy]

I just randomly rolled the following numbers. Let's have a little exercise in charting. Tell me what you see and how you would bet the following series. Random roller just picking them up as presented and tossing them down the table. I see a couple of things of interest right off the bat. Let's see if you can find them.

4H - 6H - 10 - 7 out
6 - 9 - 3 - 6P
4 - 7 out
10 - 11 - 5 - 2 - 4H - 12 - 6H - 8 - 7 out
7P
10 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 7 out
7P
5 - 11 - 5P
8 - 11- 10 - 4 - 9 - 5 - 9 - 3 - 6 - 6 - 12 - 3 - 6 - 11 - 7out
3 - 7 - 10 - 3 - 9 - 10P
10H - 8 - 10P
8 - 5 - 6 - 2 - 7 out

[Knick111]

HAPPY NEW YEAR.,

As you know heavy, i only bet the field when i used to play craps.

Right away i counted the amount of throws you posted ,
and i saw there are 58 AND 29 are field numbers

Field players dream, attack the field.

Jaime.

[heavy]

The layout of those numbers may confuse some of you since I start a new row with each Pass or each 7 out. You actually have several very nice hands in that mix.

4H - 6H - 10 - 7 out
6 - 9 - 3 - 6P - 4 - 7 out
10 - 11 - 5 - 2 - 4H - 12 - 6H - 8 - 7 out
7P - 10 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 7 out
7P - 5 - 11 - 5P - 8 - 11- 10 - 4 - 9 - 5 - 9 - 3 - 6 - 6 - 12 - 3 - 6 - 11 - 7out
3 - 7 - 10 - 3 - 9 - 10P - 10H - 8 - 10P - 8 - 5 - 6 - 2 - 7 out

Okay, when I break the rolls down like this and put all of a shooter's games on a single line the pattern looks completely different. Suddenly the game doesn't look as choppy as it did above. With that said, there's a lot of good info to be had by expressing rolls as I did in the first chart. Does anyone out there get this at all or am I talking to the wall?

If you did not bet the four and ten then you blew it. If you did not bet the six you blew it. Jaime is correct - this table is a Field bettor's dream. Being a prop-a-holic, I would probably have been on the horn bet early and often for a whopping four bucks a pop. Nice little run of every other roll horn opportunities in the middle of the series. It's also a table that's warm - trending to hot. But I don't think it's going to last . . . (it never does).

[London Shooter]

I quite liked the first layout once I had a look at how you had done it. A new line for each point cycle and come out winner as far as I saw it.

Decent session for right side players if they chose the right numbers or even just a simple passline with odds should have made a profit. Even a don't player may have done not too bad with a negative odds progression. Might have been a bit scary though after two 10 points hit on the final hand.

Me, I would have hit the All Tall on the long hand and been left hanging on the full boat by the missing 2

[220Inside]

I probably would not have been on the 4, but would definitely have been on the 6 and 10.

[pappyvanwinkle]

I may have missed it, but based on the description, this is how your betting on others, right? How do you bet when your tossing, because my betting is different when I'm tossing as opposed to betting on someone else.

I actually prefer the fireboat to the all-tall-small. In some sense, it's a lot cheaper to play. I know people will say, you'll get paid more often with the ATS. Never worked out for me, I'd end up tossing more money to put myself back on the bet multiple times. It actually messes up my style of play. The FireBet at least I don't need to toss out more money on the same hand. Christmas Eve, I ended up at a casino, luckily the casino wasn't crowded, I ended up hitting a 5 point FireBet, I was missing the 8, ironically I had tossed a bunch of 8's, of course they came during point cycle's for other numbers. Ended up with like a $500 win on the hand not including the FireBet, color coming in!

[heavy]

4H - 6H - 10 - 7 out
6 - 9 - 3 - 6P - 4 - 7 out
10 - 11 - 5 - 2 - 4H - 12 - 6H - 8 - 7 out
7P
10 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 7 out
7P
5 - 11 - 5P - 8 - 11- 10 - 4 - 9 - 5 - 9 - 3 - 6 - 6 - 12 - 3 - 6 - 11 - 7out
3 - 7P
10 - 3 - 9 - 10P - 10H - 8 - 10P - 8 - 5 - 6 - 2 - 7 out

I modified the first chart slightly to improve readability. The above style of tracking shows you exactly how many rolls between sevens at all times, since you start over with every seven (even the good ones). Charting 101 - if sevens are compressing - coming in short sequence - then you play the Don'ts. If sevens are expanding - a larger number of numbers between sevens - then you play the Do's. The problem in the above numbers - the Come Out sevens kill your Don't Pass bets. To that end, one would be better in most of these instances to wait until a point is established - then Lay Against it.

[cubfan2121]

I realize this is a charting exercise
but if I were just playing the 6-8 for $18 each then regressing to $12 then pulling a grafstein and pressing a $6 every hit
I feel like im cheating by looking at the 6 and 8s
just by looking at the rolls, I can see that id make a small profit on each shooter

But what i have done is using grafstein "qualified" shooter concept
i like the idea of 1 unit bet on passline if shooter rolls a 7 and if shooter passes (qualifies) then I play 1x odds