I was recently looking at the comps I receive from my local for playing craps. For the past 10 sessions I have tracked how many points I get. From this data I get an average of 50 "points" per session, or $2.50 in cash-back for 2-hour average session, so $1.25 per hour in comps. Additionally I receive anywhere from $5-$20 in "bounce-back" cash per week, though not sure how much of this is from Craps and how much is from the random times I play slots or other table games.
For reference I play table minimum at a $5 table, either PL with odds and two come bets, or PL with odds and $22 inside, or $6 DP with $6 6/8. Of course there are times when I press my wins, and occasional hardways, C/E, dealer bets, etc.
Anyway, most advantage gamblers consider comps as part of their total edge over the casino. Especially pro Video Poker players. So my question to the forum is:
Do you keep track of comps?
Do you consider comp play as part of you net win/advantage over the casino?
Any advice on getting more comp value? Or do you know of any casinos in Vegas/Atlantic City/etc that are more generous with their comps for Craps players?
*Wasn't sure where to post this, so please move if it should be in another part of the forum*
Comps as part of your win
Moderators: 220Inside, DarthNater
Re: Comps as part of your win
There's actually a segment on the APC DVD called "Playing the Comp Game to Win" or something like that. Let's start with how comps are calculated and what they're looking for. They're looking for your THEORETICAL LOSS, often referred to in casino parlance as your "theoretical." Your theoretical is a function of your average bet size, number of decisions per hour that that bet is exposed to, the number of hours you play, your skill level as a player, and the casino's anticipated win percentage based on that.
Let's say you buy in for $500 at a $10 Craps game. When your information is captured for rating purposes the pit inputs your buy in, the time, which table you're playing and at what limit, and the amount of your initial bet. Boom. You are on the clock. About every twenty minutes thereafter he returns, takes a look at your rack, your action on the table, and enters your current bet amount. He makes a judgement call on whether your a "smart" player or not. There were, last time I looked at a rating screen, four levels. A, B, C, D. I don't recall if A is "smart" and D is "our kind of loser" or the opposite, but that doesn't matter. You WANT him to think you are a terrible player - which comes into play with a couple of moves you can make to make it appear you are NOT a smart player. When you end your session and color up he enters how much you left the table with and gets you off the clock. The computer works its magic from there and comes up with your average bet/rating.
Numbers time. Let's say your first bet is $10 PL. Point is established. You take $100 odds. You also place the six and eight for $12 each. You have $134 action on the table. Unfortunately, they are not going to rate you for that $100 odds bet because the house has no edge on it. You get rated in SOME casinos as a $34 player. They look at the total amount of action you have that they hold an edge on. But at OTHER casinos you end up getting rated around an $11 player. They look at the total of your action and divide it by the number of bets. I mention this ONLY so that you'll be aware that different casinos calculate odds different in this regard. However, this difference is basically compensated for further down the comp equation.
Let's go with that $34 action. Let's say you play for 2 hours. Based on the estimated speed of the game we'll call it 70 decisions per hour. 34 X 70 = 2380. So never mind that you only bought in for $500. During your session you wagered $2380. That's because you are continually re-betting money you won in previous hands. It's a game of give and take, after all. Now, based on the pit's evaluation of you as a "C" player - not the sharpest crayon in the box - the house assumes they are going to win 20% of your action. $2320 X .20 = $464. At this point it doesn't really matter THAT much if you cashed out $650. The casino is looking at the long run AND the combined play of all the players for all time. They know that using their numbers it'll all eventually work to their favor. So your THEORETICAL loss was $464. Now, every casino has a different percentage of your theoretical that they are willing to comp back to you. Let's say that amount is 6% for a player at your level. (Higher level bettors get more). $464 X .06 = $27.84. You ask the pit if he can give you a comp for 2 to the buffet. He checks your available comp balance and sees you only have $27.84, of which he'll comp you $25. A lunch buffet at this joint is $11.99. You're in luck. If it's after 4PM and the casino is charging $19.99 for that same buffet, you get "You don't have enough for two. I can get you one to the buffet or I can comp you $25 to the coffee shop. You can get a very nice meal that for that." End of story.
So, how do you improve your comp rating. It's not as easy as it was twenty years ago, that's for sure. Computers have really complicated things. However, you can influence what the pit enters into the machine. I used to use this play when I focused more on comps than I do now. First, buy in for $1000 instead of $500. Why? Simple. The pit assumes that if you buy in for $1000 you plan to lose $1000. That gets him in the right frame of mind, and it goes right into the computer. Next, you make some sort of dealer bet with your first bet, and you make sure you get another dealer bet out there whenever you see the pit coming your way. We're talking a buck on the hardways every twenty minutes or so. This shows the pit that you are playing for the boys. He came up through the dealer rotation himself and knows how much his boys depend on tokes for their income. This paints you in a favorable light with him. Another trick I used to use was to make a larger than normal first bet. That's the one the pit's going to note in your rating chart first and you want it to be a good one. So I might buy in for $1000 and tell the dealer to go ahead and set me up $160 across but keep it up and off for now. I'm hoping the pit will make note of the bet and not the fact that it's not working. After the point is established the dealer will ask what I want to do with the wager on that number. I tell him to leave it up, but not to work my action until I tell him. I watch a few rolls. If the seven shows I tell him to bring all of it down. He the shooter's hand continues awhile I may say "Let's make it look like $66 inside and work it." But typically I won't work the entire action just to try and get a bigger average bet rating. Now, back to watching the pit when he's walking around to check everyone's bet size. That's a good time to press whatever action you have on the table, so if you have $44 inside out there you might drop two green chips out there and tell the dealer to "make it look like $88 inside." And while you're at it, go ahead and get some sort of prop action for yourself. If they have hop bets on the layout this would be a good time to hop the point, whatever it is. Why? Because you want to LOOK like the kind of player the casino wants. One who is not the smartest one at the table. Last of all, at every opportunity to do so, drop a chip or two in your pocket. You'll have no problem doing this with red chips. Green chips are more difficult to secrete. Black are impossible as the camera is watching them all the time. But if you can lock up a hundred or so a session it will make you appear to be losing more than you are - or it will cloak or partially cloak your winning. Do not color those chips up at the table. You cash them at the cage.
The last thing I'd suggest you do when playing table games is to call the pit aside after a session and ask him how much he has you rated for. If he says $34 and you think it should be $66 then by all means tell him. Suggest that he review your betting with the dealers or review the video if need be. You just want to be rated correctly. Often they'll rate you up just because you asked. They don't want the hassle of a complaint over rating and they know that those customer surveys the casinos send out ask if you agreed with your rating.
By the way, back in the days when there was such a thing as "discretionary comps" that could be written by the pit I used to go out of my way to be nice to and befriend as many of the pit critters as I could. If I knew it was the guy's birthday I'd send him a tie. If it was a lady I'd send flowers. On holidays like valentines I'd send a box of candy to the dealer's break room. Christmas stuff for anyone I liked. I received many times the value of this stuff in comps through the years.
Now, to answer your question:
1. Do I keep track of comps? YES
2. Do you consider comp play as part of your net win/advantage? TRICK QUESTION. My answer is - sort of. I do not consider the casino's retail value of any comp when calculating it's value to ME. My local joints charge $24.99 to $29.99 for their Friday seafood buffets. I put this stuff somewhere around the same quality as Long John Silver's, and put it's value accordingly. I'll allow around $10 for a buffet. That $160 tab at the steak house is worth about $60 at Texas Road House. That $300 a night hotel room is not nearly as nice as the one I can get at the Holiday Inn Express for $119. Bottom line - any dollar I don't have to spend on myself that I WOULD have spent on myself counts as a win - at what I'd be willing to pay for that same meal/wine/room/round of golf etc.
Hopefully that'll help you somewhat.
Let's say you buy in for $500 at a $10 Craps game. When your information is captured for rating purposes the pit inputs your buy in, the time, which table you're playing and at what limit, and the amount of your initial bet. Boom. You are on the clock. About every twenty minutes thereafter he returns, takes a look at your rack, your action on the table, and enters your current bet amount. He makes a judgement call on whether your a "smart" player or not. There were, last time I looked at a rating screen, four levels. A, B, C, D. I don't recall if A is "smart" and D is "our kind of loser" or the opposite, but that doesn't matter. You WANT him to think you are a terrible player - which comes into play with a couple of moves you can make to make it appear you are NOT a smart player. When you end your session and color up he enters how much you left the table with and gets you off the clock. The computer works its magic from there and comes up with your average bet/rating.
Numbers time. Let's say your first bet is $10 PL. Point is established. You take $100 odds. You also place the six and eight for $12 each. You have $134 action on the table. Unfortunately, they are not going to rate you for that $100 odds bet because the house has no edge on it. You get rated in SOME casinos as a $34 player. They look at the total amount of action you have that they hold an edge on. But at OTHER casinos you end up getting rated around an $11 player. They look at the total of your action and divide it by the number of bets. I mention this ONLY so that you'll be aware that different casinos calculate odds different in this regard. However, this difference is basically compensated for further down the comp equation.
Let's go with that $34 action. Let's say you play for 2 hours. Based on the estimated speed of the game we'll call it 70 decisions per hour. 34 X 70 = 2380. So never mind that you only bought in for $500. During your session you wagered $2380. That's because you are continually re-betting money you won in previous hands. It's a game of give and take, after all. Now, based on the pit's evaluation of you as a "C" player - not the sharpest crayon in the box - the house assumes they are going to win 20% of your action. $2320 X .20 = $464. At this point it doesn't really matter THAT much if you cashed out $650. The casino is looking at the long run AND the combined play of all the players for all time. They know that using their numbers it'll all eventually work to their favor. So your THEORETICAL loss was $464. Now, every casino has a different percentage of your theoretical that they are willing to comp back to you. Let's say that amount is 6% for a player at your level. (Higher level bettors get more). $464 X .06 = $27.84. You ask the pit if he can give you a comp for 2 to the buffet. He checks your available comp balance and sees you only have $27.84, of which he'll comp you $25. A lunch buffet at this joint is $11.99. You're in luck. If it's after 4PM and the casino is charging $19.99 for that same buffet, you get "You don't have enough for two. I can get you one to the buffet or I can comp you $25 to the coffee shop. You can get a very nice meal that for that." End of story.
So, how do you improve your comp rating. It's not as easy as it was twenty years ago, that's for sure. Computers have really complicated things. However, you can influence what the pit enters into the machine. I used to use this play when I focused more on comps than I do now. First, buy in for $1000 instead of $500. Why? Simple. The pit assumes that if you buy in for $1000 you plan to lose $1000. That gets him in the right frame of mind, and it goes right into the computer. Next, you make some sort of dealer bet with your first bet, and you make sure you get another dealer bet out there whenever you see the pit coming your way. We're talking a buck on the hardways every twenty minutes or so. This shows the pit that you are playing for the boys. He came up through the dealer rotation himself and knows how much his boys depend on tokes for their income. This paints you in a favorable light with him. Another trick I used to use was to make a larger than normal first bet. That's the one the pit's going to note in your rating chart first and you want it to be a good one. So I might buy in for $1000 and tell the dealer to go ahead and set me up $160 across but keep it up and off for now. I'm hoping the pit will make note of the bet and not the fact that it's not working. After the point is established the dealer will ask what I want to do with the wager on that number. I tell him to leave it up, but not to work my action until I tell him. I watch a few rolls. If the seven shows I tell him to bring all of it down. He the shooter's hand continues awhile I may say "Let's make it look like $66 inside and work it." But typically I won't work the entire action just to try and get a bigger average bet rating. Now, back to watching the pit when he's walking around to check everyone's bet size. That's a good time to press whatever action you have on the table, so if you have $44 inside out there you might drop two green chips out there and tell the dealer to "make it look like $88 inside." And while you're at it, go ahead and get some sort of prop action for yourself. If they have hop bets on the layout this would be a good time to hop the point, whatever it is. Why? Because you want to LOOK like the kind of player the casino wants. One who is not the smartest one at the table. Last of all, at every opportunity to do so, drop a chip or two in your pocket. You'll have no problem doing this with red chips. Green chips are more difficult to secrete. Black are impossible as the camera is watching them all the time. But if you can lock up a hundred or so a session it will make you appear to be losing more than you are - or it will cloak or partially cloak your winning. Do not color those chips up at the table. You cash them at the cage.
The last thing I'd suggest you do when playing table games is to call the pit aside after a session and ask him how much he has you rated for. If he says $34 and you think it should be $66 then by all means tell him. Suggest that he review your betting with the dealers or review the video if need be. You just want to be rated correctly. Often they'll rate you up just because you asked. They don't want the hassle of a complaint over rating and they know that those customer surveys the casinos send out ask if you agreed with your rating.
By the way, back in the days when there was such a thing as "discretionary comps" that could be written by the pit I used to go out of my way to be nice to and befriend as many of the pit critters as I could. If I knew it was the guy's birthday I'd send him a tie. If it was a lady I'd send flowers. On holidays like valentines I'd send a box of candy to the dealer's break room. Christmas stuff for anyone I liked. I received many times the value of this stuff in comps through the years.
Now, to answer your question:
1. Do I keep track of comps? YES
2. Do you consider comp play as part of your net win/advantage? TRICK QUESTION. My answer is - sort of. I do not consider the casino's retail value of any comp when calculating it's value to ME. My local joints charge $24.99 to $29.99 for their Friday seafood buffets. I put this stuff somewhere around the same quality as Long John Silver's, and put it's value accordingly. I'll allow around $10 for a buffet. That $160 tab at the steak house is worth about $60 at Texas Road House. That $300 a night hotel room is not nearly as nice as the one I can get at the Holiday Inn Express for $119. Bottom line - any dollar I don't have to spend on myself that I WOULD have spent on myself counts as a win - at what I'd be willing to pay for that same meal/wine/room/round of golf etc.
Hopefully that'll help you somewhat.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
-
Bankerdude80
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:05 pm
Re: Comps as part of your win
I should probably keep better track of my comps. I usually hit and run at the tables so I tend to doubt that my craps play gets much of a rating. As long as the room and the meals are free, I am happy. The occasional freeplay doesn't hurt a bit either. Lately though, the comps have become the incredible shrinking comps. The resort credit (food, etc) has been non-existent and freeplay diminished significantly. My trips in 2017 will be limited compared to past years due to the decrease in offers.
I have to work on that.
I bet minimally on everyone else and much more on myself. I can't imagine they're rating me much. Although they may favor my Come Out game action of a $5 world and $1 Ace-Deuce. I don't give comps much thought when playing, but I do look for the offers I do get and try to take advantage of them if they're worthwhile.
heavy wrote: You WANT him to think you are a terrible player
I have to work on that.
I bet minimally on everyone else and much more on myself. I can't imagine they're rating me much. Although they may favor my Come Out game action of a $5 world and $1 Ace-Deuce. I don't give comps much thought when playing, but I do look for the offers I do get and try to take advantage of them if they're worthwhile.
"Take the Money and Run...."
- Steve Miller Band
- Steve Miller Band
Re: Comps as part of your win
A pal of mine who used to hang out here on the forum always played one of Benson's strategies that had him playing something like $300 in assorted line bets, prop bets, hop bets, hedge bets, etc. on the Come Out. He had something like six bucks at risk, but he got rated as a $300 bettor. The guy could get anything he wanted comped.
I'm pretty much like you, Bankerdude. Give me a place to sleep. Feed me twice a day. Send the beverage server by with Baily's and Coffee in the morning and keep the bottled water coming the rest of the day and I'm a happy camper. The occasional concert or show tickets are big plusses, but often I don't take advantage of them either. There are something like six shows I could get tickets for while I'm in Biloxi, for example. I reserved tickets for two of them.
The best thing they could comp me today is the spa/resort fees. My ass is dragging from this upper respiratory infection I've had for the last week. Looking forward to a chair by the pool and some salt air down on the coast next week.
I'm pretty much like you, Bankerdude. Give me a place to sleep. Feed me twice a day. Send the beverage server by with Baily's and Coffee in the morning and keep the bottled water coming the rest of the day and I'm a happy camper. The occasional concert or show tickets are big plusses, but often I don't take advantage of them either. There are something like six shows I could get tickets for while I'm in Biloxi, for example. I reserved tickets for two of them.
The best thing they could comp me today is the spa/resort fees. My ass is dragging from this upper respiratory infection I've had for the last week. Looking forward to a chair by the pool and some salt air down on the coast next week.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
-
London Shooter
- Posts: 2590
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:15 am
Re: Comps as part of your win
I'll only track a net win/loss at the end of the session. If the net win was also brought about because of the use of some promo chips, then that's good news but I don't track it separately.
My buy in might be boosted by promo chips from time to time, but equally each time I play it also absorbs the cost of drinks (we have to pay for our drinks at the table here in the UK), waitress tips and dealer tips.
Other comps such as free/discounted rooms and occasionally free/discounted food I don't count separately either. I just recognize that the produced a net reduction in trip costs but I wouldn't view them as any kind of income in a profit and loss sheet.
My buy in might be boosted by promo chips from time to time, but equally each time I play it also absorbs the cost of drinks (we have to pay for our drinks at the table here in the UK), waitress tips and dealer tips.
Other comps such as free/discounted rooms and occasionally free/discounted food I don't count separately either. I just recognize that the produced a net reduction in trip costs but I wouldn't view them as any kind of income in a profit and loss sheet.
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London Shooter
- Posts: 2590
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:15 am
Re: Comps as part of your win
We should play the "what tickets did Heavy reserve" game.
I'll go for WIlly Nelson and Pat Benatar.
I'll go for WIlly Nelson and Pat Benatar.
Re: Comps as part of your win
I was too late to the party to get the Willie Nelson tickets, although my host said he'd wait list me in case any came available. Not really a fan of Tracy Lawrence, who is there Friday night. I did book the Anthony Cools show on the 11th - the bride is making the trip with me and we're staying over after the seminar for a week or three. The night before that - the 10th - we're taking in the Diamond Rio show at the Golden Nugget. I would love to hit Biloxi the weekends of May 5th and June 9th to see the Four Tops AND the Temptations in May and the Happy Together Tour with the Turtles in June - both shows at the IP. Doubt that I can work either into my schedule. This retirement thing has me way too busy with honey do projects.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
-
twowayhardeight
Re: Comps as part of your win
Thanks Heavy for the detailed post. Only thing is, even if it tripled my comps, betting bigger than usual on my first come out probably wouldn't be worth it! I would be getting $7.50 instead of $2.50, haha! But I guess that's why they say don't play for comps!
I've started keeping track of additional info, what strategy I was playing, the length of time, buy-in, and whether I win or not. Maybe a pattern will emerge. The points I earn has varied widely, from 24 points (about $1.25) to 90 points (almost $5). There seems to be a lot of voodoo in their calculations.
I've started keeping track of additional info, what strategy I was playing, the length of time, buy-in, and whether I win or not. Maybe a pattern will emerge. The points I earn has varied widely, from 24 points (about $1.25) to 90 points (almost $5). There seems to be a lot of voodoo in their calculations.
Re: Comps as part of your win
Playing table games for comps has become a losing proposition for most. However, if you can find full pay video poker and play perfect strategy the comps can put you well ahead of the game.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy
- Heavy
Re: Comps as part of your win
Heavy, please hang around another 40 years.
You don't need to go and meet your maker yet.
Jaime 1943.
You don't need to go and meet your maker yet.
Jaime 1943.
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London Shooter
- Posts: 2590
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:15 am
Re: Comps as part of your win
Heavy, Anthony Cools ticket sales must be really slow. They have even offered me two for that show. At least it is somebody I have heard of, though a week too early. I am still hoping REO Speedwagon might have something available on the day.