Where's the Dark Side Love ??

[mssthis1]

My best dark side sessions have been at the bubble machine. Their RNG has a lot less variance/volatility than a live game and the pace is quicker. There's a new one in the local area that is still set to award points at the same coin in level as the slot machines at the same casino. I've been playing as much as my butt can stand until they wise up.

[crapsjourney]

Just looked up bubble craps. I so wish we had that in Australia. Dark side dream. It would produce the statistical norm or results so would be similiar to a decent RNG app or wincraps.

[stratocasterman]

D.N8r...bring a Darkside crew to Manila. You can be sure to pocket some $s no matter which casino you would choose.

Come to think of it, I think I will travel back to Okada (an extravagantly built Japanese resort). I went there once and swore I would never return. The tables were SO bouncy that anything over a 30 degree toss is likely to bounce right off the table. The rails came up to nearly my arm pits and I'm nearly 6' tall! Very uncomfortable and difficult to toss on those tables. Most players I noticed just RR skipped the dice down the table. I tossed twice (from SL1 and straight out) in about 5 minutes and promptly left shaking my head.

They also had the bubble craps machines but, I have never played one.

Now that I have embraced the Darkside, seems like a great idea to go back, chart some and go "DARK".

[DarthNater]

Strat,

Will talk to Heavy about an international road trip.....

Big Bouncies = Big Dark Wins

Tiptoe in... it seems the Sheriff & his Deputy are prevalent on the big bouncers.... so I like to start with DCs..... bet DCs until you get an outside number, then lay the odds and wait. I like to rack up a few wins, then raise the odds slowly. If you notice that PSOs or PPSOs are coming more frequently, then slide toward betting the DP. Also, generally at least once around the table, each time, a guy will have a nice hand; so stay alert and switch on him; get some two way action going. Then start again with the DCs.......

Haven't been to Manila since the 80s, 2 weeks after they burned the Hyatt, don't recall seeing any casinos then, but remember the Navy Chief riding shotgun in the van with two shotguns. When we asked him about that, he said "three's a crowd"......

Good luck with the big bouncers, D.N8r

[stratocasterman]

Strat,

Will talk to Heavy about an international road trip.....

Big Bouncies = Big Dark Wins

Tiptoe in... it seems the Sheriff & his Deputy are prevalent on the big bouncers.... so I like to start with DCs..... bet DCs until you get an outside number, then lay the odds and wait. I like to rack up a few wins, then raise the odds slowly. If you notice that PSOs or PPSOs are coming more frequently, then slide toward betting the DP. Also, generally at least once around the table, each time, a guy will have a nice hand; so stay alert and switch on him; get some two way action going. Then start again with the DCs.......

Haven't been to Manila since the 80s, 2 weeks after they burned the Hyatt, don't recall seeing any casinos then, but remember the Navy Chief riding shotgun in the van with two shotguns. When we asked him about that, he said "three's a crowd"......

Good luck with the big bouncers, D.N8r

Gotcha...great advice and thanks.

Yea...probably wasn't any casinos here back then! President Marcos martial law days...

[DarthNater]

I figured it was time to bump this thread.

Went into the Venetian two weeks ago. Those of you who know me, know I really don't like the place, as its energy is so negative that it even gets me down. But, alas, I had time to kill so went looking for a game. They had 3 $15 tables operating. One was full of smokers, so migrated over to the other two, and watched, and watched. One was choppy, one was warm and dumping cash. I stepped up to the warm one figuring I'd rotate to the choppy one as I was thinking don'ts. Waited for the randy shooter, who was hitting numbers. He made his point, I bought in at the far end. He was still bragging about all his points he had made when he PSO-ed and suddenly he and his two buddies colored up-all large stacks. Leaving me and four others. I put $15 on the DP, blammo aces. Then a 10,7...PSO. Next shooter, 9,4,12,7; thanks, my $15 DP & $30 odds win. Next guy, a shocka, then 5,11, 11, 7; thanks

Guy before me, sets eight as a point, I place $15 on the 8, to cancel the DP, and put $15 on the DC, a 6 rolls; so I give the dealer another $15 to place the 6. [ This is my new favorite way to dodge the 6 & 8 during a darkside play. Yes I was using $15 places, vice $18 places for a "full payout". A 6 or eight pays $17 {$14 for $12 & $3 for $3} if it hits ]. Then he rolls a 4, and I lay $30 on the $15 DC. Then he makes the 8, I net $2 and tell the dealer to work my 6. He rolls another 8 on the come-out. I'm thinking that's a lot of 8's I'm seeing, and since I had the DC for protection, placed the 8 for a full $18. He tossed a 6, knocking down my $15 DC, but paying me $17 for my place bet, I "press" it to $18, LOL. Two horns later, hard 8; I rack the payout. Next roll is a come-out 7, I collect on my DC. Next he sets a point of 4 (dodged that bullet), then a hard six, I collect; a soft eight, I collect & decide to press on the next hit. I'm now off the dark. He's still looking for a 4, and tosses a hard ten, then a hard eight. I wish I was on the hardways, but drop $3 and press the 8 to $42 (thanks, Heavy). Then there's a yo, another 10, a soft 6 (I collect); then back to back hard eights. I collect and sit on the $42 as he was a flinger and was still rooting for his point of 4. Another 6, as sweetie walks up and on queue, he sevens out. I neat about $350 for less than 30 minutes......

Yeah, I know this is a darkside thread, so here's the angle: I used my first four darkside wins to protect my 6 & 8 transition and it worked (it doesn't always)....... D.N8r

[memo]

D.N8r

I am working through your post and I know it is right in front of me...But, can you explain..

"I net $2 and tell the dealer to work my 6."

Earlier, you placed the 6....Was it off at this point? And, do you use this hedge each time the DC travels to a 6 or 8?

Memo

[DarthNater]

Hi Memo,
I was a bit sleepy typing that. As the DCs and DP bets are always working; when you place the number, you have to tell the dealer to work the place bet on the comeout; otherwise the canceling effect isn't on. So after the shooter made the eight (point) and was coming out, I had a No 6 DC that was live, so told dealer to work the place bet on the 6.

I only use it as a hedge when I'm sensing that a transition might be in order; plus (especially lately) I've noted a personal tendency to go dark too quickly or stay dark a bit too long; so this has been a more recent play. I'll do it if the point is a 6 or 8; then if the first DC travels to the sister, then I'm thinking, gee a 6 & 8 back to back - doesn't sound cold to me.

My primary goal in darksiding is to gain a certain amount of profit from each shooter, as this was a $15 table, I start with a $15 flat and lay enough to net another $15 off the odds, so $30/shooter. So I don't mind canceling a 6 or an 8 if it gets me to an outside number to lay. Other times, I'll leave the No 6 or No 8 naked and see if I get the devil. As this had been a good warm table, I hedged early so was in prime position to transition

Cheers, D.N8r

[memo]

Interesting....
So, would you say that a large percentage of your play is transitioning, or preparing to transition depending on what you see?
In the past, I have usually played one side or the other....And in doing that, I get caught on the wrong table at the wrong time...Souring my desire for dark side play...

Really would like to get a handle on this stuff..

Memo

[memo]

Interesting....
So, would you say that a large percentage of your play is transitioning, or preparing to transition depending on what you see?
In the past, I have usually played one side or the other....And in doing that, I get caught on the wrong table at the wrong time...Souring my desire for dark side play...

Really would like to get a handle on this stuff..

Memo

[memo]

Ugh, Cant believe I hit that button twice...

These little nuances...ie Turn on the 6 to cancel effect on the come out are details that make it difficult to understand and gain confidence in dark side betting, especially transitioning.

Judging from your first paragraph...
"I put $15 on the DP, blammo aces. Then a 10,7...PSO. Next shooter, 9,4,12,7; thanks, my $15 DP & $30 odds win. Next guy, a shocka, then 5,11, 11, 7; thanks "
I would have thought this table was pretty cold. Is a few 6,8's enough to be thinking that the table is trending warm..
It was a nice transition, however the hand really was not that long, just some fortunate repeaters.

Memo

[DarthNater]

Well, I was a bit lucky on the moves. What helped was I had seen most of the long roll of the crew that colored up, as they were SO at the other end. He was pounding the 6s & 8s, then nothing close for like the last 7-8 rolls. So my initial mindset was a don't with odds and then place the 6 & 8 and see if I could get a hit or two from each shooter; however I never really got into that plan as the next two guys sevened out so fast. It wasn't until the guy before me tossed 8, then 6 back to back that I was able to start the wheels turning, and even then I was looking for an outside don't. It helped that I was up after the first couple of guys, so I tried to stay the course and get an outside number to lay.

Once the No 4 got paid, I knew if the roll ended on the next toss, that I'd still be up for the shooter, so no worries at that point. I figured any minute he'd seven out as I was already parallel processing what to do when I get the dice: should I shot from the don't, the pass line, or pass the dice as I didn't know the table.

Scout - the best way to get the refresher is to stand at the end of the table and make the mental moves on the don'ts as you watch the shooter toss. I think that's one of the key things we all learned together in Heavy's Veteran's Day don't session - that gaining familiarization with the moves is just as important as learning the power presses on the place bets. As an example tonight I was at one of my favorite $5 icebergs - there were more guys watching than playing, so I just ran the moves in my head - left the 6 or eight naked, and kept betting DCs until I got an outside number then laid it and watched. First two guys sevened out in less than 6 rolls, so I bought in, put a nickel on the DP, guy rolls a 9, I lay $15, blammo a 7. Next guy rolls a 6, I bet a DC & it travels to the 8, I bet another DC, it goes to the 10, I lay $20. Shooter throws back-to-back 5s, then a 7. Next guy bullfrogs a 9, costs me $20. Oh well. I put out a $10 DP, he throws craps [If he had thrown a 7 or 11, I'd have backed off ]. Back to a $5 DP, he throws a 5, I lay $15, next is the seven. So I was practically even on him - you're not going to win them all - or lose them all. Walk thru the moves, think of it as a rehearsal for when you have chips in your hand, ciao, D.N8r

[mssthis1]

Thanks for the comments, D.N8r. Are you in the camp of 1(or 2) loses per shooter? I haven't played the don't but maybe 10-15% of my playing time. Typically I am the only player at the table - max being including me. My don't play is usually a naked DP while waiting for the dice to return.

Years ago I met a player that bet don'ts exclusively. A black chip player. Only played DC and bet on outside numbers. 6x odds on the 5/9, 8x odds on the 4/10. Sure he got knocked off occasionally. He mentioned his play worked with 20x. His win goal was 10K a weekend.

Base your number of losses per shooter on your personal bankroll and your personal comfort level in dealing with bankroll swings. The larger your bankroll and the more comfortable you are with bankroll swings = being able to handle more losses per shooter if you choose to do so. Some people with huge bankrolls stay with 1 loss per shooter.

When I play the darkside it's 3 losses per shooter for me not counting naturals. If a shooter picks off 3 bets, I count naturals every time that person shoots after that. .

[SHOOTITALL]

Several years ago, I watched a high roller playing the dark. He would play both the DP/DC and they traveled to the 4 or 10 he would lay max odds. If they traveled to the 5/9/6/8 he would do nothing. I had to think on this after I got home as to Why he was not just laying the 4/10 instead of the D/C: It was the vig. When he was laying $2500, $5000 or so, the vig would just cripple any wins he had. His next move was if the number got picked off, to double down on the lay. On the other numbers, he did not care. It was a 100 odds game.

[memo]

I would like to muse just a little bit so please bear with me. This may be just a little disjointed..

I find the dark side betting to be perplexing...There are many moving parts that make putting it into play more than a little intimidating for me on several different levels. It is real easy to learn payouts, study charts, understand a few strategies, etc.
It is a whole different story when you step up to the table and put it into action..

It was not that long ago, I can remember confusing true odds with house odds. Come bets, even odds on 5,9....five dollar increments when placing. Place to come strategies, bypass the come out, working on the come out...yada, yada.

I am the guy that had the 6,8 both up to 900 dollars during crapsfest, so I have learned something along the way. I learned from books, reading this site...Heavy's seminars. Dice Coach et.,al. I learned watching Pappy VanWinkle. (God knows what kind of accelerated moves he is using these days) I learned most of the subtle nuances in live play at the tables, things you do not get reading out of a book.

Bottom line is that with all the myriad of learning possibilities put together along with role playing, theorizing...The real learning takes place in live play, at the casinos.
That in itself is no big deal...It is probably true for most of us, so nothing remarkable about these statements..

Well, if it is not clear... I have given this subject a great deal of thought. Why then is it so difficult to move to dark side betting?
I am not alone here. I see almost no one doing it. Heck, we took a whole course on it at Crapsfest, and no one went dark. Some mentioned 'considering it', some 'thought about it'.

I have a couple more thoughts on this and then I will pause, to see if anyone is interested.
All the learning I noted above took place in a relatively friendly environment. I am referring to down and dirty table learning here. Stuff you learn as hands play out. Comments from other players. Thoughts from a friendly dealer or TGS. What they see day in day out. Successes and failures, etc. What is the impact with this move under this circumstance...How does that contrast with...whatever?

This is not always the case with learning the don'ts. Not so easy to get friendly advice there....Just smirks as your bets are picked off. Scowls if you win. Dealers that are not always sure of your payoffs. Not to mention shooting from the don'ts and continuously knocking yourself off....Just the thought of that is intimidating.

So, what am I getting at besides petty insecurities ..?
This thread has been insightful.
Something as simple as D.N8R turning on his 6 place bet on the come out to protect his DC bet. Simple as that is, it really provided some clarity. It was so basic that he barely mentioned it in passing. I, on the other hand, had to read it three times and finally found it necessary to ask for an explanation. (Yes, I can be pretty dense)
I could point to many more, but what I am hoping for, is that some of you veteran dark siders will continue adding pieces of the puzzle that are foundational to you but eye opening to me. (And possibly to others)

Memo

[heavy]

Diamond Jacks in Bossier is great for dark side play. Problem is most of the time they just have half a table open. Overall I don't care for management's attitude there. They send me around $50 twice a month in free play and I rarely bother to stop in and use it.

[London Shooter]

Good story SIA about putting max odds on the DP or DC on the 4 or 10. Big difference at that level in a 100x odds house than doing the lay.

[DarthNater]

Memo,
That's a really summary of many of the challenges with the don'ts. Hey, at CrapsFest I had my 8 pressed to $420 and it hit, so I understand the mental gymnastics that you're referring to. I had it to $420 because I was betting on BankerDude as had seen him shot several times and saw him as a trend beater.

I wouldn't fault anyone for NOT darksiding a table full of heavy's student's simply because someone is likely to catch a hand. I tried darksiding twice on that Sunday and both times made a hasty transition and both those times when looking at the logs were clearly dark trending. And that's the rub - dicesetting is counter - trending. My thinking is there is no trend when there are 8 of us at the table. Last summer at the Flamingo it was a pretty choppy trend. I was at SR2 (not my usual spot), considered passing, but opted to shot; despite the logs "trending downward".

So its different for a table of setters, though I still remember at the FIRST CrapsFest watching Maddog drop green chips on the DC while 14 of us struck out at making anything.

Keep playing with it, use some chips and war game. Visuals really help - I still remember Heavy's stack of 18 black on the eight at the Flamingo. I didn't know how they got there, as my 8 was at $72 or something; but they were there & I know now, as he pressed his $420 to $900 (like you did); then took the hit and pressed to $1800. Keep playing at it and watching; whenever I see a darksider, I watch them - I think we are just scratching the surface here, as there are guys like SIA describes that are figuring it out and I'll bet that guy didn't start at the purple level.....

Keep after it, ciao, D.N8r

[heavy]

I think you guys are correct. We just need to do a dedicated dark side weekend in Vegas. I actually have a class session already prepared on shooting from the Don'ts. I can provide the handouts, the dice sets to use based on the point established, how to handle the come out game, etc. We'll have toss training as usual, focusing on tossing short hands and sevening out early. Then throw in a day of dark side play for fun and profit. Who would be interested if we did something like that in Vegas in March?

[220Inside]

The March Vegas class is one of the ones I'm considering for next year. I would definitely be interested in a dedicated darkside weekend. I've been dipping my toes more lately into the darkside waters and would love to learn more.