Choppy tables. What’s your trick to beat it?

[DanF]

Looking for a discussion on those damned choppy tables.

You know those with 4-5 pso by table turns and 4-5 6/7 rolls hands which kill your dark plays... is it beatable or you just ruin youself stepping on these?

[SHOOTITALL]

Dan: I'll start it off so I can get hammered - uh, by the board - but there are several ways to attack the chop. Going dark.
MP has a decent way to play the dark on a Choppy table. Adjust this to your playing amounts. 11) Living on The Darkside
This is a whole section on the dark. Since you have come aboard, MP hasn't been posting for probably over a year, but I see he did post in January this year. Hopefully he will become as active as he use to be. Meanwhile, if you read this and have any questions, let us know.
Now that old site has probably over 200 articles by MP and I would suggest you bookmark that old dicesetter site (that was once owned by Irish and moderated by him) and put that site on your reading list. Now, what I am referring to is "Dodging Bullets on the Darkside". Read that article and it does work. PM me when you have read it and will tell you the changes I have made that seem to work. SIA

[Seattlerick]

Danf,, lots of patience. I find waiting for a point TO BE MADE, then waiting for two rolls after the next point is set. Then 44 inside ( or 66 or 110 ), one hit and down to $6 6&8. Works best.the more aggressive you are on choppy tables, the faster and the more you will lose. 8 out of ten tables will be choppy in one form or the other.also on really choppy tables, 10% win goal of your starting bankroll is about all you can expect per session. Hope this helps...Seattle rick

[SHOOTITALL]

Stats from Dodging Bullets
Ø The dice are “red hot” about 4% of the time.
Ø The dice are “ice cold” about 6% of the time.
Ø The table “trends warm” about 20% of the time.
Ø The table “trends cool” about 30% of the time.
Ø The tables are “CHOPPY” about 40% of the time.

There is a 40% chance that a player will make his 1st PL-Point
There is a 16% chance that a player will make a 2nd PL-Point in a row.
There is a 7% chance that a player will make his 3rd Point in a row.
There is a 3% chance that a random-roller will make a 4th winning PL-Point in a row.
There is a 1.2% chance that a player will be able to make his 5th PL-Point in a row.
There is a 0.5% chance that a player will eventually make six PL-Points in a row.

[London Shooter]

SIA, that Mad Professor post back in January turned out to be a rogue old one that somehow got bumped up on here with a new date. He hasn't been active since the autumn of 2016.

[Moe Bettor]

I posted on youtube long ago..not pro done, but it is pretty much how I beat the chop. It's called beating the chop at craps in which I use Wincraps which is completely random..or at least as random as you can get with a computer generated system. Maybe it can give you a few ideas.

[Dylanfreake]

For the Chop;

Rightside : Pass Line wager taking odds or going naked

Darkside: Laying odds or going naked

In other words, keep it simple.

[Bankerdude80]

I've recently have been gettiing good results with a combination of OHCM and dodging bullets Strategies. So far so good, however it is still too early....the jury is still out.

[wild child]

P,DP ........P, D P......P,P,DP..........DP,DP,DP ...C/O 7out,C/O 11,C/O TWELVE,
.
Multiple Choice
a) suck it up and wait it out
b) Bet a $25 Whirl plus Hop Sevens $15
c) Order a beer
d) Head to the buffet , for All U Can Eat Oyster-fest night
e) Vow to take up fly casting
f)ALL of the above
g) None of the above
.

[heavy]

IMHO the smartest way to play Choppy to Cold tables is to go with the lowest vig bets. That means the Free Odds bet. And to get a Free Odds bet up you have to get a flat bet up - in this case, a DP or a DC. I'm of the opinion a 3x4x5x odds table is among the worst for this situation. I'd look for at least at 10x odds game. In short, you're going to establish a DP or DC bet, then (at the point which seems most opportune to you) lay the largest amount of odds you feel comfortable with.

I would offer you the alternative of Placing the Six and Eight depending on the size of your DP or DC bet. For example, if you played a $25 DP bet then I would have no problem with a $12 Place bet on the six and eight - even if one of them was the established point. My feeling is that you give the shooter 3 - 5 shots at hitting the six or eight. If it doesn't happen - take them down because they're not paying the rent. If one of them DOES hit - take them down anyway. You've essentially lessened your risk on the DP/DC side. You'll have a $25 bet with $11 exposure to win $25. You'll have and odds advantage once the point is established. Makes mathematical sense to me.

I would consider adding a DC to my DP bet, but in a lesser amount than the DP bet. If I had a $25 DP bet then I'd wager a $15 DC bet. If my DP was $15 then I'd go with a $10 DC. If it were $10 - then $5. That provides a hedge against the seven showing at the point you bet the DC.

Last of all, if I were taking the DC route initially instead of playing the DP - at any point when it seemed appropriate (energy draining events, for example) I would lay against the point - again in the largest amount I could comfortably tolerate.

Should my DP bet get knocked off then I would Lay max odds I could tolerate from a risk aversion standpoint against the remaining DC bet.

I probably did not state the above particularly well, but think about it and you'll get the drift. Again, we're using the lowest edge bets, taking advantage of some partial hedging when appropriate, and setting ourselves up to win big with a significant Free Odds bet.

[DanF]

Well thx guys, working up a game plan for my next night.

I guess from what I saw today:

Skip the first line bet, wait 2 rolls, 2 dc and wait it out, if point is made add a dp.

For taking 6&8...not a bad thought either, will try it sometimes...but darkside odds tend to bite my ass.

I think I will change back my main strategy to collect earlier too. Can’t be bad

6&8 @ 18$ each, collect first hit
Second hit press to 30-30
Third collect 35$
4th press to 66$ (1 at a time)
Collect 77$ on a repeater twice
Press to 120$
Collect till it stops

I also thought about adding a 20$ 9 on a hot roll and when hit spread it on 3 numbers for 3 units each.

[SHOOTITALL]

I've recently have been gettiing good results with a combination of OHCM and dodging bullets Strategies. So far so good, however it is still too early....the jury is still out.

BD: You are sort of on my way, I haven't ever posted because I do not play enough now a days to give it a full run of several sessions.
So, here it is: Could adjust for table mins.
DP min (if you lose) ($5 min table)
DP min (if you lose)
Now go to MP strat:
1. $15 DP (Then)
2. $35 DP (Then)
3. $75 DP ( I be done, that's getting beat five times but if you want, keep going)
Most one can lose is $135 which is not much of a hill for a stepper.
NOW: When you try a dark side per MP, Notice he says "Point" not win. Otherwise, if the shooter throws a seven or eleven, doesn't count.
I have not lost yet running this but as mentioned, not enough table time. Haven't run it on win craps but would love for someone to program it out and send me the results for a couple of million rolls. sia
forgot: The reason for the above, when I tried it MP's way, found myself TUMA waiting on a frigging point and it was just too damn boring.
Even as an old guy, I like a little action. (There is a 40% chance that a player will make his 1st PL-Point) That is too good to pass up,

[six shooter]

DanF...My regression post applies well to this discussion.

[DarthNater]

DanF....... some good comments above.

Definitely read all of MPs content on the darkside. When I first experimented with it, I really liked the CT-SL method, but as SIA said waiting for the first point as a trigger means a lot of idle time as it might take 5-6 shooters before that first point is made. That's a lot of darkside opportunities to miss on, especially if you concur with the note of only 40% of shooters make their first point.

My hesitation on the CT-SL is always the sheriff and the deputy as chasing the come-out gets you up to the third or fourth level too often in the CT-SL to suit me. Hence, my preference is not to wait for that first point to start, as I'll do a DP, then if a comeout knocks it down, I'll double it - once. More and more, I'm looking for going both ways as I'm liking that better than the CT-SL - as seems less volatile to me. I like the OHCM and will play that some once I double on the DP, and look for a 6 or 8. Of course for that to work best, I'd like the OHCM point to be outside, as if its a 6 or an 8 after two come-out wins; now I'm wondering if the trend is changing. D.N8r

[220Inside]

CT-SL??

[DarthNater]

CT-SL is MPs shorthand for his Choppy Table - Short Leash martingale

[heavy]

But but but . . . since there's no such thing as a foreseeable trend at craps you could just stand there making a single bet per shooter and wait for things to change. It could change on the next roll.

[DanF]

CT-SL is MPs shorthand for his Choppy Table - Short Leash martingale

I will never ever again martingale anything on a losing day.

And I advice you do the same...just a streak of comeout 7/pso and you’re fucked big time.

[DarthNater]

Yes, exactly why my leash is shorter than MP's, as I won't go five deep to net five units, but I will try a second DP on the same shooter, D.N8r

[pappyvanwinkle]

I actually ran into this over the weekend. Here was the setup, bought in at a table at SR1. The table was semi-full. All the other tables were full, the next nearest table was a long walk to another casino. It was a a mixture of different types of players. No one really got anything going on the table, at most someone made like 2 points, but generally it was either 1 point or no point at all. I'm sure we've all been at tables like this. I tossed like twice, and the dice felt good to me, and my tosses looked okay, it was a matter of getting dialed in.

One player who was prevalent in my mind was Mr Prop Better. This guy had some hard on about hopping the 5's on some weird interval, hard ways, horns and 3-way sevens. On every toss he was tossing some money into the stick. I was hoping that he'd run out of money and have to leave the game, but some prop bet would hit and he'd get more money. While I was tossing, he would toss money to the prop area and complain to the stick. I proclaimed, "Why don't we get those late bets in early!". The guy complained the stick was moving the dice too fast. This was complete BS. For those that have never been at a table with me, when I'm tossing, I wait until everyone has made their bets. If there is even the slightest hint people are still making bets, I push the dice back to the dealer and wait. Anyways, Mr Late Bettor didn't care and just kept it up, eventually I seven'd out.

Another player who stuck out in my mind was essentially a newbie. It looked like he may have played before but really didn't know all the bets. Since he was next to me, initially I did try to give the guy a suggestion here and there, but since it was clear he wasn't listening I just dropped it. He was all over the place, he'd play pass line, sometimes take odds, do place bets and mess up the amount(toss in $10 for the 6). Most humorous to me was a few bets he tried to make. If he had a place bet and the number hit, he would tell the dealer, "same bet press" and the dealer just looked at him with the HUH LOOK, and would come back to him at the end and ask him what he wanted. Another time, apparently impressed with Mr Prop Bettor's actions, tried to emulate him, and promptly tossed in $2 for a 3-way sevens, again eliciting the "HUH LOOK" from the dealers. It had to be explained to him, that's actually 3 bets so they need at least $3.

For myself, this was about as good as it was going to get. It was either take a crack at this table or not play. Since this was the option, it's pretty much a waiting game, we either just stand there and wait for it to come around or we bet. I did a mixture of both, some shooters I made a bet and some I didn't. When I did make a bet on a shooter, I make ONLY one bet, typically a 6 or 8. The one bet I made will fuel any additional action on that shooter, at no point do I toss out more money. I may move my bet if their banging some other number. I'm hoping the choppy table eats into people's bankrolls and they leave. I'd say it took about two and half times around the table to clear out most of the players. What was left was just 3 players, two on the other end and myself. I was still good bankroll wise, was only down like $140. The other guys reloaded, got markers for like $1000.

Now I was only going to take 2-3 more attempts at this table and then pull the plug. Luckily I only need one more attempt and managed to adjust the toss for this table. I did my usual betting setup, so I had the firebet. I was making points pretty quickly initially, I made 5 points, but only two different numbers. The stick even remarked to me, that I've only tossed 8 and 10's. I did make a 5 point firebet hit, the missing number was a 4, in the whole hand I hadn't tossed a single 4. I did reach table max on my 6, or rather just shy of it since it wouldn't pay right at that level.($1000 table limit, so I bet $960, guess I could've made it $990, but close enough) I had like 3 hits at max. The 8 was close behind at $420.

The only other interesting things that I noted during my hand was someone was laying money on the other end, they must've lost at least $600, because I'd see a stack of red in the Don't Come box and I saw chips in the lay area behind the numbers. Also, surprisingly someone bought in next to me while I was tossing, and he was asking me to make room for him. I pointed out I was shooting here. They said there was no other spot. I let them in, luckily he didn't mess me up that much, besides the occasional shoving me in the back when I'm tossing and him wanting a high five when I hit a hard ways. I generally saw at most like $60 place bets from other players at the table.

When the hand ended, at the other end of the table, someone called out, pass it back to him, and I said, no that's okay, color coming in. +6302

The dealers made out, since I had them on the firebet with me and I had set them up $60 across piggybacked off my bets.

So back to the topic, how to beat choppy tables. I think you just decide to take a shot if it works out, great, if not, you walk away don't waste anymore money on that table. I think the thing that eats into the bankroll of so many players, is they bet on every shooter at the table, take odds etc. Generally I won't bet on everyone, and even when I do bet on someone else, I try to limit my exposure.

Think of $5 Bill, pretty much he takes his shot, if it works out, great, if not he leaves to come back another day.

Just some thoughts

Pappy.