How Do YOU Maximize YOUR Return on Dealer Tokes?

[heavy]

Although I usually do a "hand in" of excess dollar chips when I color up - essentially all that hand in does is let me leave the table with a "feel good." For the dealers - a buck or two split four ways (or more) means little. To maximize return on tokes - meaning that you get something more out of it than a "feel good," you should bet for the dealers during your play - and hopefully put a few bucks in the box. My play has evolved into a fairly standard "Dollar Hard Eight" for the boys when I first buy in - and an additional dollar played somewhere at each stick change - basically three dollars an hour. That's my basic toke. But when a hand gets hot I'll bet more for the dealers. I might toss out $2 and place the six and eight for them - or place an additional dollar or two on top of my free odds and let them know that the extra chips are " for the boys." This type of action lets the guys know you are on their side. It also goes along way toward putting additional chips in your rack. If, for example, you forgot to get your odds down before the second toss and the shooter bullfrogs his point, the dealer may tell you to go ahead and drop your odds and he'll pay it. If there is a dispute over a pay out the box may rule in your favor because you've been toking. And although you should always return any mis-pays, it is not uncommon to find yourself receiving a couple of extra chips in your pay off during a hand.

My opinion has long been that every buck you tip comes back to you somehow. So the question of the day is - Do YOU toke the dealers? If so, HOW do you toke them, WHEN do you toke them, and WHAT return you have seen. War stories welcome.

Comments?

[London Shooter]

Almost live war story:

6:30 am this morning I am prowling the strip and it's the quietest I have ever seen it, both inside and out. All craps tables I go to are empty or just one player - many of you would drool but I like at least a couple of others on the table.

So I ease in with breakfast cocktails over VP at the Cosmo. It is middle of the afternoon my time after all - Bloody Mary and cucumber martini, v nice. Back to Ballys around 8am and craps has woken up.

2,3,11,12 repeater and a dollar on the 11 for the boys. The 11 gets two payouts in 5 or 6 hands or so of a nice hour-ish session, so 2 x 50 for me and the crew. I think the morning shift will remember me for the rest of the week on that basis.......the accent helps too of course

I also hit myself a 12 repeater in the mix. Not a huge fan of the bet but nice to pickup on the extremes for once.

[wild child]

About two decades an "OLD TIMER" demonstrated this :
( I put my spin on it )
>THIS WILL GET YOU RECOGNITION
and even
an accommodation for a spot on
CROWDED HOT TABLE
when others MAY NOT get in <
- -
Start with $1 white chip on each of the BOX NUMBERS ( $ 6 ) :
Instruction the Dealers and BOX PERSON:

"This is for the dealers...
I will control these wagers....As each number shows,THE DEALERS lock up the
Win Amount leaving the original $ in place
and
I will add another $1 to THAT SHOWING NUMBER....
as each number shows The Dealers lock up that $winnings
and
I will continue to control those wagers
plus ADD
ONE MORE $1 to THAT PARTICULAR NUMBER.....
>
Any number that reaches $5 THE DEALERS TAKE OVER on THAT ONE NUMBER
The Dealers decide to LOCK UP THE TOTAL WAGER or PARLAY or just add to it "
>
Only go with this ploy in houses with "GOOD VIBES" and "SHARP CREWS"
Then only once in a while......
>
Only use when I am the shooter
Also NOT used on EVERY HAND when I am the shooter
<and
only in selected "Friendly 2 THIS PLAYER joints "

just me saying
w c

[rhythm roller]

When playing pass line on myself or another DI, I always top my passline with a dollar chip and another dollar to the side of my passline for the dealers. If the pass wins then the dealers get the side chips and I reload it from my casino winnings on the pass line. Also, this dollar on top of my pass lets me bet more behind in odds. When the hand starts off I keep the extra odds win and as the hand progresses and if the dealers are good then I start to fund a couple of bucks behind my side bet as odds for the dealers and my extra odds bet funds this as well.

I hadn't played ar Harrahs in LV for 3 or 4 years. Went to the table and put out that bet and the stickman said that he remembered me. I was puzzled and said "you do?" Then he said well I don't exactly remember your face but I remember you by that bet. So, interesting that when you don't think you are not particularly noticed some of the details can stick with the crew. I could tell he liked the bets as he was very good to me and even "forgot" to take down a couple of Come bets on Come Out 7's.

[Bankerdude80]

I usually toke when I am tossing. I make an initial piggyback $1PL bet for the dealer and I'll back it up with odds if the hand progresses.

I will also place bet $6 across for the dealers (player control) but I will let them manage it with a wink and a nod (they're not supposed to). Although lately, I've been wondering if they're better off with a $6 six or eight instead, building up and out with that. I will make these dealer place bets if I am shooting or if another shooter catches a hand. Sometimes the dealers really make bank when a hot hand emerges. Toking this way always provides extra attention from the crew. They know I'm serious and they're in the game.

The only time I find that toking doesn't work is when another player is at the table toking big money and no matter what I toke, I am ignored. When this happens, I usually don't continue to toke. I just drop them some chips when I color up.

[AlBTossin]

I like to toke the dealers. I know it pays off with the attention they give you. They do work hard for little money so they usually do really appreciate some extra tips. I toke during play and not at the end of play. I place their toke next to my pass line free wager so they know it is a wager for them, typically $2 on my shots and when I am winning with other shooters. This way I can maximize the tip with a win (2 for 1, 3 for 2 or even on 6/8). Also I will add a tip on the 4/10 when they are bought so they can get 2 for 1. I like seeing the casino help pay for the tokes.

[London Shooter]

Good point about being on the table with a big toke player BD and then you definitely can feel any efforts you make are totally lost in the wash of chips coming over from the Big George.

Got a number of repeater bets "freerolled" this past week on co7s. That bet can be a real cluster on a full table when needing reset, especially if other players were also setting up craps checks, worlds, any 7s, high lows ad infinitum - last session I played at Bally's I swear the stick lady gave me 4 or 5 goes on differnet shooters without asking for a reload - it may or may not have helped that my small repeater contained a dealer $. On one occasion my repeater action even survived a 7 out and change of shooter. Never did get paid on any of these free rolls however

[Backstroker]

How about a piggyback toke for dealers when on the DP or DC? Think you could get shot at table by the rightsiders?

[pappyvanwinkle]

Pretty much my philosophy to the dealers is, if I'm winning, you win too. So, I toke as the hand is going along. In a nutshell, I just bet across and toss out $6 and tell them to piggyback my bets and that their player controlled. I do that so that the dealer bets stay up, but like BD stated I just tell them press or take it's up to you. Every now and then I run into a box man that says I can't piggyback those bets, they come down when they hit. If that happens, I'll either just do hard ways bets for them or just toss a toke in on any win. I'd say most dealers prefer the piggybacked bets and it puts them into the game. Most of these dealers play the game themselves so know where to put the money which is why I leave it to them. It was actually a dealer who taught this way of toking to me, literally he told me, give me $6 and I'll take care of the tokes.

I toke because it's a tough job, and their really underpaid and have to take lots of crap from people(no pun intended). If I'm getting bad service from the dealers I don't toke. If it's only like one dealer who is giving bad service, I'll let them know and the often the other dealers will pay attention to my bets since like I said, generally there's a piggybacked dealer bet there too. I've seen it where the other dealer will keep an eye on my bet and then have to remind the dealer to pay themselves too!

I recall a session where I started them off with $6, over the course of the hand tossed in like another $18 in piggyback tokes and noticed the dealers had standard size bets for a $10 game on all the box numbers, aka $18 on the 6, $30 on the 8 etc.

Regarding being on the table with someone else who tokes big, I'd say it's crew dependent. Really good dealers know what their being toked for service/attention and make sure your taken care of. There's a friend of mine I play with every now and then, if we are on opposite sides of the table, he takes care of toking the dealers on his side of the table and I are care of them on my side, so everyone's happy.

Talking about this, its sad that people don't toke. I saw a dealer who was helping a player who didn't know how to play, make all his bets for him(press, parlay etc). The player bought in for like $300, cashed out for like $6000 and at the end, tossed the dealer $30 in red chips as a toke. We were remarking about it after the guy left, he literally made the guy thousands. I guess it's the thing no one teaches players, how to toke. I mean seriously, the dealers will appreciate all tips.

I remember playing with Heavy and others, and Heavy had the dice, and made a pass line bet for the dealers and proclaimed, "DEALERS NEED SHOES". A bunch of us tossed $1 chips to use as odds for the dealers If you try that now, people will look at you funny, thinking what happened to the dealer's shoes?

Pappy

[Bankerdude80]

Sometimes if someone like PVW sets up the dealers across on place bets, I'll toke by pressing up the existing bets. It really helps get tham to decent bet levels quickly when everyone is pressing all the dealer bets. Usually I am only able to do this in group outings because it seems nobody tokes the dealers using place bets as much as in the past. (From my observations).

[mssthis1]

Sometimes if someone like PVW sets up the dealers across on place bets, I'll toke by pressing up the existing bets. It really helps get tham to decent bet levels quickly when everyone is pressing all the dealer bets. Usually I am only able to do this in group outings because it seems nobody tokes the dealers using place bets as much as in the past. (From my observations).

I do that too if it will make it a proper bet. if someone puts out a dealer line bet with no odds, I'll put some odds on that bet.

[Tgold]

Generally only when I'm shooting unless a team mate gets on a monster roll I will then do a couple $1 for the dealers.

$1 on top of my PL wager. Shooter control, Dealer take win only and leave base bet.
After one hit I will add an additional $1 as an odds wager on the PL or if on the 4/10 will instead place that addendum $1 on the most-hit number thus far.
IF the hand gets into say >2 points and or >15-20 rolls I will start adding $1 on each hit to each place bet with same instructions as above. Generally I don't increase from the $1/1.
IF for any reason at any stage I get heat from the box, stick, or pitboss for anything nonsensical I don't say anything. However, I pull all tokes down except the one topping my PL.


All the best,
Tgold

[memo]

I am with PVV,
If I am winning, I want the dealers to win, it matters not who is shooting..

For myself, I always place a tip after making a regression. The staff begin to understand what you are doing quickly and anticipate your move. I described this on a regression thread.

If running a progression on the 4 or 10, I will piggyback some of the returns. They know how much those will pay off, and stay really tuned in for a hit .
I really like using Heavy's 5/9 tip.
When the 75 dollar bet pays 105. I tell the dealer to give me the black and piggyback the red.
It is so unexpected...They will usually stop in mid chip move and say something like...'Eh?, or Huh' It gets you remembered.
Similarly, 6/8. Drop a white chip to add to the red and piggyback it.
Surprise is good, and surprise it does....At first, I almost always have to explain/rephrase, next time, they are all over it.
If you are getting to this level from..15/18 dollars, the dice are going your way...dealers need to be in on the action.

One last thought....It works better with Heavy's progression
15, 35, 75, etc.(taking some of course)
If you bet, 15, 25, 35, 50, 75....You are just like everyone else..Same presses..Yada, yada. Takes longer to get there and impression is not the same.
A dealer bet is good..It's always good, just not the same impact, you are doing something different from the get go.

Memo

[heavy]

I also feel that you can toke your edge away.

One of the most important things to remember when toking. I've seen guys at the seminars tossing out dealer bet after dealer bet - I supposed because they want the dealer to like them or something. Honestly, the dealer could give a shit about you. All they want is your money. Yeah, toke and odds are you'll get better service. But no dealer is going to risk his job to help you out (over a mis-placed or forgotten bet, for example) for a dollar toke.

[r_ventura_23]

I don't agree with this. I tip often and I am positive I have been paid when I should not have.

One time while playing Roulette some d-bag told the dealer that he didn't take my losing bet down

[pappyvanwinkle]

But no dealer is going to risk his job to help you out (over a mis-placed or forgotten bet, for example) for a dollar toke.

Yeah, no dealer is going to risk their job for you, but disagree about helping you out. Thinking about this, could also be the way people toke. Early on, I let the dealers know this is how I toke, I will cap my bets with a $1 toke for the dealers. My motto is, "if I win, you win". So, if something happens to one of my bets, that's where your toke went too. When bets get messed up and recreated, I've pointed out my bet is wrong, "I had $?? on the hard 8 with $?? piggybacked for the dealers" and I've had them back me up when making the case to the box man.

Many of the dealers are craps players themselves and can bet better than most of the players I believe. On several occasions, given how I toke, literally I let the dealers do what they want with the winnings. Starting them with $6 across, I'm always amazed when they get the bets up to standard bet amounts on a $5 or $10 table.

But, if you only have that dollar toke on the pass line for them ever, they might not be that helpful when you start asking about your missing $12 etc.

Just keep in perspective what you expect vs what you'll get.

Pappy

[London Shooter]

So, at my local place recently, the bloke who is probably the largest consistent tipper at the table arrived about an hour after he got there. My current bet for the dealers recently has been a £ on a hardway - get them to pick it themselves which also adds I think to the affect and also engenders a bit of ribbing/banter amongst the crew depending on the result and who has made the pick - more bang for you buck I guess in that the toke is discussed and therefore noticed more if the dealers pick their own bet.

Anyway, I think two of my hardways had landed up to that point - but this was all put in perspective when Mr Moneybags got the dice to shoot. He dropped a pile of loose change chips (5s and 1s) and staked them on the hard six which he then hit two rolls later. It turned out on counting up his stack of loose change chips was £36 which was £378 and down for the dealers to much enjoyment of the crew.

I'm sure my earlier efforts were appreciated but there is no doubt what the talking point of the shift was going to be that day. When I next see the same bloke playing, for as long as he is on the table, I'll let him do the toking

[memo]

On a slightly different note, here's a question. A number of us have had this discussion over lunch.

Do you feel tokes have a big impact on comp credits (ie: tier points)?

If so, how do they factor it into the comp equation?

Indirectly....I believe it can.
If you have Doug, morning shift at Paris. Nothing will help. He will lower your numbers just because you set the dice.
If you get ..someone else (names omitted)
You are tipping (not excessively)..getting along with crew, pleasant at the table...
I have found many times, especially when asking for average roll and time at table, they will openly move your numbers up.

Once I explained to a TGS, I was trying to make a tier level. He told me that he added 25 dollars a hand in the center area. He said.. 'That will get you diamond in a day'....
Those people can make you.

Memo

[Irukanji]

On a slightly different note, here's a question. A number of us have had this discussion over lunch.

Do you feel tokes have a big impact on comp credits (ie: tier points)?

If so, how do they factor it into the comp equation?

On paper I think they don't. But in the wink wink nudge nudge world, the guy entering info into the system might 'mistakenly' enter the wrong info on you and just happen to bump up your numbers.

[pappyvanwinkle]

On a slightly different note, here's a question. A number of us have had this discussion over lunch.

Do you feel tokes have a big impact on comp credits (ie: tier points)?

If so, how do they factor it into the comp equation?

Yes, it can have an impact if you take advantage of it. Here's the deal, when your coloring up ask the box what they had you rated at. At the session at Harrahs where I hit the firebet recently, the box and I had a disagreement about the rating, she had me at like $120 and thats low. After some back and forth about how that is low, I had $x in play/at risk, and finally I was taking care of the dealers (I just won them $1000) she relented and agreed to increase my rating. I seriously doubt if you toke'd the dealers a dollar every so often and then when your coloring up ask them to bump your rating, I doubt they'd do it. The other thing is, if you don't ask about it, they'll just put some amount they last saw.

As to how it get's factored into the the comp equation, we'll never know how they determine it. I can tell you, higher is better, and that gets calculated into your ADT or Average Daily Theoretical. The ADT is what casinos determine how much money they may make from you when you wager with them and they use that to determine what offers they will send you.

Pappy