Buying the Five and Nine

[heavy]

Buying the Five and Nine is one of those things that will get you "the look" from the pit in Vegas, where they are prone to tell you that you can only buy the four or ten. However, there are situations where it pays you better to Buy the five and nine if the casino will permit it. In Mississippi, where we do a lot of seminars, the five and nine are automatically bought at (as I recall) the $20 level. And even better news than that - they collect the vig AFTER the win. What's the difference? A traditional Place bet on the five or nine will pay you $28. A $20 Buy bet on those numbers will pay $30 for $1, or $29 net if you don't drop the dollar. That's $1 better than the payoff on the Place bet.

I'd like to hear some of you Mississippi "regulars" talk on this subject and give me your press schedules on the five and nine where they are automatically Buy bets at the $20 level. For example:

I traditionally play $15 on the five or nine. If it hits it pays $21 and in casinos outside of Mississippi I press it to $35. The next hit pays $50 for $1. But in Mississippi I press the bet to $36. This pays $54 minus the $2 vig, or $52.

SO where would YOU go from there? Collect the $52 then on the next hit press to? $80 . . . $84 . . . $88 . . . power press to $90? Inquiring minds would like to know. I'd like to put together a Mississippi bet press schedule we can use as a handout for the classes we do in Biloxi and Tunica.

Thanks.

h

[House of Orange]

20 t0 30 to 50 t0 80 t0 100. Very conservative and I may collect one or two without pressing. Imus Pressit would go nuts! Highest I ever went was to 1200 before the seven. Don't remember how I got to $600, but it was +$200 every hit.

[Riggs]

Is there any point at which you would buy the 5 and 9 vs. placing it if you have to pay the vig UP FRONT?

[Bankerdude80]

I'd like to put together a Mississippi bet press schedule we can use as a handout for the classes we do in Biloxi and Tunica.

That would come in handy. I had no idea how to press those bets during some of the long hands we endured in Biloxi. Luckily, the dealers helped when they could.

[220Inside]

Would really appreciate that as well. I get really tripped up when I go to MS because I don't have a good press schedule worked out for their auto buy rules. I generally start off at 10, 15, 36, 80 and then struggle from there.

[heavy]

I hear you. The dealer had me going $15 - $36 - $84. When I asked him where to go from there he said "just keep it in even numbers and we'll figure it out. Maybe my old pal APCA will chime in and give us a little help, since he's BIG on buying the 5 and 9.

[dork]

I'm not sure if I'm gonna be a help or not. I was weened on Mississippi craps. I've never played craps outside of MS. When I was reading Grafstein and all the other books to learn the game I noted that they all discussed Place vs. Buy bets, but the likelihood of my traveling out of state and playing in a casino are pretty small--in the ~4 years since I've been playing, it hasn't happened yet. I figure if it ever does, I'll ask the dealer to help. Thus, "buying" is the natural state (no pun intended) for me. I never even thing about the vig. As for a progression, I'm not usually a progression bettor on those numbers. I'll parlay one, and "up $20" (maximum) on the sister. Also, I can't help with a $15 progression--I've never "roared out there" and plunked across at the $15 level with the intention of parlaying from that point.

All that said, here's my usual parlay schedule: I usually bet $10 on the Place 5/9 and parlay this way:

$10 pays $14 and I'll parlay to $24
$24 pays $35 and I'll add a $1 and parlay to $60
$60 pays $84 and I'll parlay to $140
$140 pays $196 and I'll parlay to $320... I know; I could round off another $10, but for some reason, I can't wrap my head around "$330" and never remember the number. It's strictly a rote memory thing--for some reason, "320" is easier for me to remember.

Obviously, these numbers are "skewed" by a "natural MS buy" bettor who never learned any better (pun intended). These numbers confuse the shit out of the dealers; they can wrap around "parlay to $24", but that's it. It's common for them to stumble on "go to $60" when I throw them $1, and they go nuts when I say "go to $140" from a $60-bet that hits. Several times, dealers have set the bet at $120 (I guess that's a common 5/9 bet amongst ya'll Vegas/AC buy bettors?) and I'll have to correct them and give back $20. "go to $320" and they're ready to kill me.

I've never parlayed beyond that. Once I hit a 5x repeater, I regress back to $10. That 5th time should pay a total of $448 + the parlay, so I suppose I'd go to $750 if I was to continue; whether the bet was $320, 330, 340, or 350..

[London Shooter]

Can't see why the dealers should be so confused by the numbers in MS as the 5 and 9 buy bet is automatic and they must be doing similar numbers all the time.

[dork]

LS, I don't know why it trips them up. $24 (toss a dollar) "go to $60" is obviously not an overly common call. Almost without exception, every time I've done that with a dealer new to me, they double clutch, take my money, place 2greens and 2 reds and then pass the previous total bet to the boxman for counting. After that first time, they never think twice and just swap a nickle for the whites and tally up the 2 greens.

I don't know why they instinctively press me to $120 and pass the change ($24) to me; not all do, but it's happened several times. Maybe no one parlays from $60 to $140--could be that other bettors throw in $6 and go to $150, or do the obvious $120. One thing's for sure--they don't often have to calculate the payoff for a 5/9 place bet at $140.

[LeaveTheTable]

Is there any point at which you would buy the 5 and 9 vs. placing it if you have to pay the vig UP FRONT?

The other guys here know how to take advantage of vig charges that are less than perfect, and I have not done that math, but I did look at perfect vig charges for place bets on the five and nine, buy bets on the five and nine with prepaid vig, and buy bets on the five and nine with postpaid vig.

With a $20 place bet on the five or nine, you have four ways to win and six seven-outs, so for every 10 bets on average ($200 total), you will win four times $28 ($112) and you will lose six times $20 ($120) for a net loss of $8 for every $200 bet, which is a loss of $4 per every $100 bet, which is a 4% vig.

If you buy the five or nine with prepaid vig, you win four times $29 ($116) and you lose six times $21 ($126) for a net loss of $10 for every $200 bet, which is a 5% vig and worse than the place bet.

However, if you buy the five or nine with postpaid vig on wins only, you win four times $29 ($116) and you lose six times $20 ($120) for a net loss of $4 for every $200 bet, which is only a 2% vig.

One of my local Indian casinos has postpaid vig on the 4 or 10, but I don't know how they are going to act if I ask to buy the five or nine. One of the boxmen is very experienced, and I will wait for her to be in charge when I ask.

[justinv6999]

Me personally I prefer to bet $20 on the 5/9 in Mississippi when it's an automatic buy bet table. Hit's and you get paid $29 so I press it to $24 and put $25 in the rack. I will either stay at $24 and steadily collect $35 each hit or I will press to $36 for the next bet, it hits and you collect $53. I will collect and possibly press to $50 at that point, if it happens to hit a couple times I will press to $80 at that point and then probably $100 then $150 then $200 then $300, etc...

[trip4f]

You boys need to search the Parson Press here on the forum.

[heavy]

Yeah, the Parson Press goes something like this: 15 pays 21 - full press to 36 on the first hit. 36 pays (net of vig) 53 - collect or press to 80. Parson goes to 80. 80 pays 116 (net vig from 120) - rack it OR Parson drops 4 and presses to 200. 200 pays 290 after sucking out the vig from 300. Parson typically racks that - his first "take" on the Parson Press. HOWEVER, this is on HIS toss only - not on others. He practices tossing Fives and Nines and is typically good for 4 - 5 or more on a hand. Often many more. When he's hot on them you can make bank. I've gone from 200 to dropping 10 and going to 500 on that 290 hit and collected on that when he's been tossing the dice. And if I can get it up to 800 and collect on THAT I'm in fat city. The MAIN thing is to get those first two hits up there so you're collecting black chips. It's easy pressing from there.

[220Inside]

Unless he's changed his progression, the Parson Press collects that first hit at 80, then goes to 200 on the next hit.

A recent small mod Ed and I discussed a while back was on that first hit at 80, dropping 4, press to 100 and rack a black chip. Next hit pays 145, net of the 5 vig and still press to 200 as before, racking 45.

In MS, I generally start my 5/9 bets at $20 to get the auto buy. First hit pays 29, minus the vig. I follow the same Parson Press schedule 20-36-80-100-200. If I'm in a decent profit position for the session, sometimes I'll start the sequence over again at the 200 level, going 200-360-800-1000-2000. Otherwise, I'll take it up in smaller increments 200-300-500-800.