vig vs put bets

[dork]

Pure spitballin' here. I play exclusively in Mississippi where the minimum odds allowed are usually 20x Odds. Normally, the vig on a Place bet is paid on the win, not up front, and the buy starts at $20. I'm wondering if I can avoid the vig AND get true odds.

I'm researching a conversion system from Place bets to Come w/Odds and "put" betting was mentioned. I found an article by MP https://www.dicesetter.com/craps_strategy/strat11.html describing the appeal of a Put in a 10x Odds game.

One thing's not clear to me. Do you have to wait for a number to roll in order to make a Put bet and add Odds? For instance, MP's description at the end of his essay describes a $500 bank-roller waiting for a 6 or 8 to roll on the Come Out before the bank-roller bets. He likes the chances of repeating the 6 (or 8), so he surrenders the opportunity to win on the 7/11 and just makes a $5 bet with $50 Odds in the Pass Line area after the roll. As I understand it, this is a Put with Odds.

At this point, without a second dice roll, can the bank-roller throw $55 in the Come area and instruct the dealer to Put the Nine for $5 w/ $50 odds? My logic may not be correct but it seems to me that if the bank-roller is allowed to skip the 7/11 and the 2/3/12 on the Pass Line, and choose his point, the Come bet should be allowed the same game...

Thank you. I'm thinking of your post, Scout!

edited to add: Is this too dumb a question for an answer? or is it that no one knows? 38 views and dead silence?

[Operator]

Dork I do not think any of the casinos in tunica take put bets.Its to good of a deal at 20 times odds.You need to ask the dealers their do you take put bets he will probably say no in tunica.
Isle of capri in cape girardeau mo does its a 10 times game but crapless.

Now to answer your question yes you may make a put bet at any time you wish Just make sure you can throw the numbers at a high rate of return you can also raise and lower your odds . This is a contract bet though that 5 dollar flat is exposed to a come out seven if you make your first pass like a come bet same rules apply.

Like any other gambling its feast or famine ; Famine just comes a little faster with full odds

[dork]

Thanks, Operator!

[heavy]

That is frequently the case at casinos that offer higher odds amounts. I've never seen a 100X odds house take a put bet. However, back in the day when Harrah's had a boat in Vicksburg they used to have a $3 game with unlimited odds up to $500. They DID take put bets and every morning that table was full of guys put betting all the numbers with $3 plus $500 odds. That's over $3K a hand on the table. Sounds like a lot but when someone caught a hand these guys raked it in. Of course, that casino is long gone.

[eastcoast]

dork when i was at Harrington yesterday I asked the pit supervisor your questions, although i have used the put from time to time, i never thought about it on the come out. He told me you can use the bet at any time, but if you do bet the come out he stressed that you need to tell the dealer if you are working or not working the bet. Where I am we have 10X odds, so for simplicity, i would wait for the passline point to be resolved, then do the put bet in the come area, what i tell them is .......i want to put the 9 for 10.00 and 30.00 in odds. I have read where 6X odds ( perhaps Heavy can chime in here) should be utilized for the put bet. ( at a minimum)

[Operator]

Since this is a vig thread people talk about not betting the 5 and nine due to the 4 percent vig . Why not put bet them instead vig problem solved. The 5 and 9 should be used in combo with the 6&8 bet but that's just me. I like the probably of 18/18 50 50 every roll. Oh well times up headed out the door good question though.

[dork]

Thanks for all the replies, Guys! And thanks, Eastcoast, for the casino confirmation.

I dunno where this is going, but until I hit repeat numbers, I don't think I'd consider much more than 3x Odds as the initial Place bet replacement. Maybe my mathematical intuition is faulty, but my thinking only took me as far as using puts to avoid the vig. The mathematical practicality of efficient use of Odds (at 6x Odds as a minimum [or whatever the multiplier should be]) never occurred to me.

I think I'd be content with 3x free odds and the Put "fee" after the first hit because at that point, my initial $10 "Place bet" jeopardy would be reduced to a total of $6 in order to have a Put and 3x free Odds (3x Odds would cost me a dollar, and the Put would cost $5). I'm not sure I'd understand how much a terrific bias there is against the bettor with a Put & 3x Odds for 6 dollars, versus $10 Placed. (On the other hand, my favorite casino by "ambience" [non-smoking, a BIG PLUS-- and the dealers] is the Palace, where the minimum bet is $3, reducing the "vig" of a Put & 3x Odds to $3.) My perception is, after the first repeater (after I've got a Put & 3x Odds bet made), the "vig" of Put itself is moot, because the first Put bet has been paid. This of course works until I'd have to add Put money in order to flesh out the Odds to keep that progression tallying with the progression's laddering scheme.

[eastcoast]

dork I would not worry too much about the 6X, as a matter of fact I start with 1X. Most of the time I am stuck with 10.00 tables, so what I do is this: I will place the 6 and 8 for 12.00 each, and put the 9 for 10.00 plus 10.00 odds (1X). For every hit on the 9, I will progress the odds usually 1X at a time. The reason I pick the 9 is because I hit the 9 quite a bit from time to time. Just don't forget after you make the put bet, its treated the same as a come bet.

[dork]

Since this is a vig thread people talk about not betting the 5 and nine due to the 4 percent vig . Why not put bet them instead vig problem solved.

I missed the implication here until Irish reposted it as a quote. I'm goin' over to the Back to Basics post myself, but is a WAG allowed?

The vig problem isn't "solved". My instinct says the vig on a Put 9 immediately after the Come Out (when any other number is established as the point) would be markedly higher than a Place 9. My reasoning is that the Put is paid 1 for 1. At least the Place 9 is 7 to 5. A Come bet's "compensation" is that it has an opportunity to reap the 7/11 payoff; that "entry fee special" allows one to stack free Odds, but at the 2-3-12 "vig". A Put bet, conversely, gets no compensatory 7/11 payout opportunity. It's got no positive features except that it isn't exposed to the 2/3/12 loss and more importantly, it's the "fee" that allows free Odds betting. My guess is, Come & Odds bettors go that route instead of Putting and Odds because they don't like the "vig prospects" of a Put. Sooo... off I go to "Back to Basics".

[dork]

Mebbe I'm just to ignernt to understand the flow in the Back to Basics thread, but it all went over my head like a stealth chopper. However, I found an explanation I could follow from MP's old site:

from https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/diceins ... 60818.html

The Twain Where PUT-bets Outperform PLACE-bets
The effectiveness of Put-bets only comes through if you intend to back them with Odds; and even then, a Place-bet will outperform a Put-bet if you wager too little Odds on it.

~If your Put-Point number is a 4 or 10, the house-edge on the Put-bet with 6x-Odds is the same as a corresponding Buy-bet.

~If your Put-Point number is a 5 or 9, the house-edge on the Put-bet with 4x-Odds is the same as a corresponding Place-bet.

~If your Put-Point number is a 6 or 8, the house edge on the Put-bet with 5x-Odds is the same as a corresponding Place-bet.

So what does that means in practical terms?
Well, in order to get the true Odds benefit of using a Put-bet in the first place; you’ll want to back your Put-bet Point with at least:

~7x-Odds if it’s a 4 or 10
~5x-odds if it’s a 5 or 9
~6x-Odds if it’s a 6 or 8...
...for the house-edge to be lower than a corresponding Place-bet or Buy-bet.

Real-World Examples

~You are in a 10x-Odds casino that allows Put-bets, and you are playing on a $10 table with a sufficient bankroll.

Comparing a PUT vs. BUY 4 or 10
~Buying a Place-bet on the 4 or 10 for $105 will net you $200 when it wins. That’s a 190.47% return-on-investment.
~Put-betting the 4 or 10 for $10 and backing it with 10x-Odds will net you $210 when it wins. That’s a 190.90% return-on-investment.
In this case, a Put-bet gives you a 2.25% advantage.

Comparing a PUT vs. PLACE 5 or 9
~Place-betting a 5 or 9 for $110 will net you $154 when it wins. That’s a 140.00% return-on-investment.
~Put-betting the 5 or 9 for $10 and backing it with 10x-Odds will net you $160 when it wins. That’s a 145.45% return-on-investment.
That 3.9% Put-bet premium over normally expected returns from a Place-bet, tend to add up and compound their profit-contributing effect over multiple wins.

Comparing a PUT vs. PLACE 6 or 8
~Place-betting a 6 or 8 for $108 will net you $126 when it wins. That’s a 116.66% return-on-investment.
~Put-betting the 6 or 8 for $10 and backing it with 10x-Odds will net you $130 when it wins. That’s a 118.18% return-on-investment.
That’s a narrow, but still profitable 1.3% Put-bet advantage.

There's another "lesser" explanation here: https://www.dicesetter.com/craps_strategy/strat11.html