WOTCO or not?

[crapsjourney]

I've been testing this in practice and live. Jury is still out.

Don't mind it for first pass, but hate losing built up numbers mid hand.

[Irukanji]

Place the six and eight for minimum bet working on the come out and use a six and eight set on first toss. Also do a $2 crap check if on a $10 minimum table.

[stratocasterman]

You know, IMO now, if you are a DI with an advantage, that is NOT shooting for a CO7 or Horn, it is a bit ridiculous to NOT WOTCO at the beginning of your opening hand.

If we are truly advantage DIs, what are we afraid of? Every toss brings us one closer to a SO, so why waste your first toss? You ARE tossing to establish a point with your go to dice set right? Doesn't make sense to me NOT to!

Some have said...they may have it in their head that it is the CO, and you MAY toss a seven seeing money out on the table at risk. Well, if that's what we're thinking, IMO, it's time to either quit tossing or clear your head. Remember SABRE? Set, Aim, Breathe, Relax, and Execute.

Some have said...they don't want to take that risk. Well, if that's the case, why bet at all IMO? You are going to bet that same amount at some point in the hand, right? Well, that SAME amount of money is still at risk at some point. You'd rather wait to bet it LATER in the hand than at the beginning?

Check your Bonetracker stats. Practice it. See what happens.

Yes, I am rustling the bushes and probably ruffling some feathers! Just provoking some more thought and responses...

Tell me...How do you NOW feel about WOTCO or not?

[Bankerdude80]

For me, if I'm not playing a game within a game (come out game), I treat that first toss like a mulligan in golf. It gives me a risk-free idea whether my toss is going to work on the table I'm playing. I like to see at least one box number before I put any money at risk.

[memo]

You know, IMO now, if you are a DI with an advantage, that is NOT shooting for a CO7 or Horn, it is a bit ridiculous to NOT WOTCO at the beginning of your opening hand.

If we are truly advantage DIs, what are we afraid of? Every toss brings us one closer to a SO, so why waste your first toss? You ARE tossing to establish a point with your go to dice set right? Doesn't make sense to me NOT to!

Some have said...they may have it in their head that it is the CO, and you MAY toss a seven seeing money out on the table at risk. Well, if that's what we're thinking, IMO, it's time to either quit tossing or clear your head. Remember SABRE? Set, Aim, Breathe, Relax, and Execute.

Some have said...they don't want to take that risk. Well, if that's the case, why bet at all IMO? You are going to bet that same amount at some point in the hand, right? Well, that SAME amount of money is still at risk at some point. You'd rather wait to bet it LATER in the hand than at the beginning?

Check your Bonetracker stats. Practice it. See what happens.

Yes, I am rustling the bushes and probably ruffling some feathers! Just provoking some more thought and responses...

Tell me...How do you NOW feel about WOTCO or not?

Actually, I agree with your position..
I also really agree with BD.
There is no good answer, since there are pros and cons to each side...And they come with their corresponding advantages or disadvantages. I think it all boils down to comfort zone that is similar to how much you are willing to spread on the table at any given time...Call it risk tolerance.

What rings in my mind is a statement that Heavy once said...(Paraphrasing).
Every long hand comes with a certain number of 'fortunate' sevens.
It is just as counterintuitive as 'See a horn, bet a horn'.
Theoretically, working on the come out should be a net winner, however, very volatile..
Knowing what you know, knowing what you see...How willing are you to risk money on it.
It is the game we play, and I love it.

Memo

[rhythm roller]

My thoughts. I think it depends on individual focus. What am I trying to accomplish and how is my "mind" when I toss the dice?

I am mostly a place bettor and do not work on the come out. My reasons. I don't have to use major concentration on the come out because my bets are safe. It is a minor rest period for my mind and body to reset and relax. Some may need to keep their concentration through out but that tires me. I like the mini breaks. If I was a Come bettor then WOTCO would make sense to me as that rest period could hurt my betting scheme some.

Maybe the psychology of how I feel after throwing a Come out 7 when WOTCO says it all. Can I let it roll off my back or am I going to second guess it? Individual preference I think but Strat you are certainly not wrong in your thinking if it doesn't bother you too much to lose on that occasionally. If our edge is present then we should take advantage of it on every toss if we can in my opinion.

[stratocasterman]

These are great posts with varied thoughts/angles.

scout...I suppose it really is logic vs. emotions.

Irish..."Also, the biggest failures I've experienced is deploying it after having made my first pass." Truly, I have done this to myself so many times. I try and not let it become a confirmation bias.

rhythm roller...yes, what we are trying to accomplish has a lot to do with it IMO.

Bankerdude80...I agree that I want to initially see what the toss looks like before tossing out any serious cash.

memo...Ahhhhhhh, comfort zone. What a great place! When I actually seem to find it is when I toss the best!

[Big O]

If we are truly advantage DIs, what are we afraid of?

I hear ya Strat. I have had the thought many times. Every time i roll a 10 or 4 on a come out i tell myself i just wasted a good money maker. However i still dont employ WOTCO very often.

a psychological reason not to

.
Iris, americraps and many others brought up this point. It and the fact that so many experienced players dont do it keeps me from trying it most of the time.

I have been using it some on a crapless table. I bet the minimum bet on the extreme outside numbers and use it like a horn bet. I probably would not use it however if i had them pressed up significantly, but i would be tempted.

[stratocasterman]

Thanks BigO!

You know, come to think of it...Back before I took my craps playing break, there was another guy at the table who is Filipino but, lived in the US for years, before coming back here to the Philippines to live. We became pretty good craps playing "buds" and have very similar betting traits.

One day long ago we were all playing and another dude was tossing. On his CO, he tossed a seven. Immediately, we both tossed a $12 each 6&8 and said, "WORKING"! We both stared at each other at first, then busted out laughing that we both had the same strategy of a 6&8 WOTCO strategy AFTER a CO7.

Everyone at the table looked at us like we were stupid! Haha! Next toss was an 8 I think. Now who's thinking we are stupid?

Since then, every time we see a CO7, we would next bet a WOTCO 6&8...and most of the table would follow the same lead. Haha!

I'm not too sure about that being any kind of super strategy though. Seems we would get burned by a follow-up 7/11 as much as we would ever get a hit on the 6 or 8 WOTCO!

[stratocasterman]

Hi Strato,

A DI I know has a "play" similar to what you posted about WOTCO after a CO 7.

He would WOTCO on any RR that tossed a CO 7 on his/her first toss. His thought was that the previous person had a hand ending 7, and that was followed by a CO 7 on the very next throw. Two consecutive 7s was a trigger to WOTCO for one toss. His bet was $110 inside for one throw.

Absolutely scout! Same thing exactly...a SO ending hand followed by a CO7.

[Sockeye]

I've been playing WOTCO a lot more lately, just on my wife and myself, if one or both of us have a rhythm going where we're repeating a signature number. I only bet the signature number, and just for $12-18. If I had it pressed up already, I'll regress for the CO roll and go back up after the point is established. I figure, if you're getting consistent rolls of your signature number, ride it. (On the other hand, CO rolls in the middle of a hand always feel like a chance to relax for a moment, so I don't want to put that much pressure on it.) On our last 2 trips, placing bets WOTCO was a reliable (but modest) moneymaker. If you place the number and the hardway WOTCO and get paid on both, that's fun. Did that a couple of times.

[stratocasterman]

Thanks Sockeye...yes, I too will only WOTCO on my signature numbers. Yes, regressing after being pressed up sounds prudent for sure!

[heavy]

Personally, I think the hop sevens is a waste of money. I'd just turn my bets all off if I were that scared of the seven. I don't mind hedging, to a point, but what the heck. If I'm going to do that I may as well lay all the numbers.

[rhythm roller]

I don't think I understand the reasoning behind regressing your signature number (I am assuming signature on that particular hand) if you want to WOTCO. There probably is the most money on that number so the most to lose if a 7 is tossed but also the most to gain on WOTCO if that has been the hot number. How much money do you have on the layout on non signature numbers at that particular time? Yes, it will vary per hand but it makes just as much sense to me to take all of it and pile it in the signature number on WOTCO as it does to regress the hot number. I think if you have the nats to WOTCO then psychologically you just have to go with it and not over think it. My opinion would be do it or don't and as Heavy said don't be scared of it. Long run is the key to any betting strategy.

[Irukanji]

I have been experimenting with WOTCO but with the Iron Cross bet using the Horn set...2/1 on top with 1/2 facing me. So far it's been good. But that's just me.

[Americraps]

I have been practicing WOTCO for the past several years, and am now trying not WOTCO. I think I like not WOTCO better.

[stratocasterman]

The decision for me is whether I have the table to myself. When I am on a familiar table and feel my toss is on, I will WOTCO. That is if I am the only one at the table.

Scout...I'm not sure I understand the "table to yourself" strategy with WOTCO. Would you explain your reasoning or is it just a gut "feeling" or the familiarity factor as stated?

Interested to know...Thanks

[House of Orange]

The problem becomes no GWAG. You are such a favorite on the comeout roll to make money, yet the average punter is more concerned about having the least money on the line, to win. Then they make one of the worst bets ever, the world. Then the casino offers the short pay ats, insuring punters avoid the seven at all costs.

[rhythm roller]

HOA,
Yes, my thoughts exactly!

[House of Orange]

Either $35 line bet, $5 crap check or $25 line bet, $4 three way craps, high ace deuce. Some times just $1 ace deuce per $15 line bet. All the time using a seven heavy set based on previous sessions at that particular table and position. It is rocket science.