Looking For a Simple Come Out Strategy

[LeftyAJ]

As I start to play a bit more (and practice MUCH more) my experience, confidence and comfort levels are increasing. I’ve settled in on a betting strategy which I’m comfortable with. On a $10 table when shooting I’ll go $10 on the Passline with single odds, then depending on the point I’ll place the 6 & 8 for $30 each. I’ll have $80 in play and that gives me three numbers working from the jump. After one hit I’ll regress the 6 & 8 to $12 ea leaving me $44 at risk with $35 in my rack. From there I’ll “same bet” a few times and then either bump up my point number odds to 2x or add either a $10 place bet on the 5 or 9. Next I’ll start bumping up the 6 and 8 up a single unit with every hit. Very simple, and it seems to work. If anyone sees some way I could tweak this, I’m all ears.

What I’m really trying to do here is expand my game, to come up with some sort of comeout strategy. With my $10 or $15 Passline bet I would like to use a “game within a game” play. Whirl bets, Hi / Lo, C&E or hop sevens, I’ve seen shooters use them all. I’m setting S-6’s and throwing in practice a good share of 2’s, 3’s, 7’s, 11’s and 12’s. I would use this play on myself and on other shooters who have show a tendency to hit (and set for!) these numbers. Yesterday I had some success with a $5 whirl and pressed it up a unit at a time when it hit. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks
A.J.

[heavy]

Well, you've certainly come to the correct craps forum to post your question. LOL.

I'm going to let some of the other guys chime in before offering an answer that will no-doubt surprise some - and be expected by others.

[Golfer]

Hehehehehehehehe! Heavy knew this was coming.

Bullies, Try Heavy's Comeout 'n Git Some Play. $5 World and a $2 Hi-Low. Pays $55 and still up if the 2 or 12 come.

For serious play press the 1st hit as follows. $15 on the 7's hopping ($5 each), $20 Hi- Low pressure (now $11 each) , $10 World Pressure (now $15 total). This is taking the $55 you got paid, less your $10 PL for a net of $45 and still up. If a 3 or 11 showed modify as you please......with some pressure of course.

There are a variety of pressing options but if you find yourself repeating trash numbers or tossing a 7's in between, by adding the hoppers and pressing the world you keep yourself in the game.

I'll leave it to others to talk about pure parlay pays.

Don't forget to toke. That really keeps the interest high and the heat down.



Golfer

[heavy]

Yeah, I knew we'd get down to that World come-out play soon enough. I'll admit that I USE that play (or one very close to it) but I will reiterated that it is NOT the come out play I teach. Any more takers?

[LeftyAJ]

Don't forget to toke. That really keeps the interest high and the heat down.

Golfer

Whenever I shoot I'll always have the dealers up for a buck on the Passline. Do you also include them on any of the comeout prop bets you've discribed?

My conservative side says to rack part of the $55, but parlaying the entire 1st hit puts you in a strong position especially if a repeater (2-12) shows. I like the Hop 7's addition.

A.J.

[Golfer]

This was an aggressive suggestion. The fun starts if you get that 2nd hit.

I will put the dealers up on a world when doing well. Another favorite play is to toss out $10 and tell the stick, "7's hop for $9 and give the dealers a big red for $1.

Have fun

[LeftyAJ]

There are TOO many options available on the C/O roll -

Set the 6/5 - 5/6 - Hoping for the Horn #'s - Been there - done that - win some - lose some - $6 Horn - high 1/2 and YO - everything pays $30 less the loss on a hit -

Looks like Snake hit it......... Using the 6/5 5/6 set my Bonetraker data and limited Casino rolls show a large amount of Yo's thrown. So taking Heavy's Comeout 'n Git Some Play and adding a buck to the Yo we have the "$6 Whirl high YO", plus the $2 Hi /Lo. Sound like a plan here.

[LeftyAJ]

Golfer, Heavy

Went to my local Casino today to battle test the comeout play. The $10 table was crowded and I only had a 2 hour time window. Bottom line, I shot the dice twice. First come out series I threw 7 – 3 – then my point number.

Second time around I went 11- 3- 7- 7- 7, then my point number. After tossing the 3, I started to hop the 7’s. For my first 7 hit I had $15 ($5ea). For the 2nd 7 I had pressed them up to $30($10ea). After the 2nd hit I went to $60($20ea) for my final hit. Next roll I pressed up to $90, made a bad (nervous) throw and got my point number 8. Bye-Bye $90. I’m wondering if my pressing schedule on the 7’s were too tame, too aggressive or just right. Also, would you have started to hop the 7’s after my first paying hit the 11?

During my two hours of play the tables were warm to hot and I had a very productive day. BTW…… I was playing at SL1 and there was a “reserved” sign at SL2. After about an hour a gentleman walks up and buys in for 20K. First time I ever saw orange chips being pushed across the table. All I could say to myself was…wow.

A.J.

[heavy]

I'd like to say that I'd play the hop sevens like this:

$3 hop sevens pays $15 - parlay to $15 hop sevens - second hit pays $75 - parlay to $75 - third hit pays $375 - take $400 and down.

How you're more likely to see me play them is:

$3 pays $15 - parlay the first hit to $15 hop sevens - second hit pays $75 - press to $10 hop sevens - lock up $50 - third hit pays $150 and I'm pissed off i didn't take the second parlay.

Personally, I would not have hopped the sevens unless I was shooting for sevens. My usual come out play is a $5 World plus a $2 high-low kicker. I'm risking $7 for a shot at $55 for a 2 or 12.

If I were going to play a hop sevens strategy I'd combine it with a $25 Don't Pass bet. I've posted this strategy before - it's one I got from a former Bossier City player I ran across in Vegas one day. He played a $25 DP with a $3 hop sevens hedge. This guy was a Don't player who never tossed the dice - he only bet on other shooters. If he hit the hop sevens bet he'd give the $25 DP a second shot but he'd parlay the first hit on the hop bet. If he got knocked off a second time he would not replace the DP but he would take the second parlay. If he won the second parlay he was done for the day. I could see you using this strategy as a shooter but flipping to the right side on the third shot.

Hey, it's never wrong to lock up a profit. Parlay the first hit and press the second with no regrets if the seven hops up the third time.

[Golfer]

Nice win Bullies. My best for the 7's is five in a row. 3 in a row is good. Keep 'em hopping.


Golfer

[Blackcloud]

UNHYH!!BC still use $10 pass-line, $5 horn-Hi-3, $ any craps for the crew With the proper set there are 10 pays in that set, and six place numbers UNHH!!Both sides are covered and the desired YO, wins both sides and all stay up-excep-t the any craps for the crew

[CrimsonTide]

BC is RIGHT ON!! The key to that bet is a two unit ($5+$5) passline bet which covers your Horn bet if the "7" rolls. I prefer the HornHi12!! I learned this one sunny, mid -week day in 1995 when shooting craps with the locals at the old President in Biloxi. Any of you remember their twin craps dealers? I was betting a $5 passline and I looked over and there was a fat gutted local bearded codger wearing shorts, flipflops and a flowered shirt. HE was betting a $50 line bet with a GRAND odds (it was 20X odds) and a $25 HornHi12 comeout and $500 on each other number after establishing his number. I was watching his comeout bets so I asked him about it. He explained how to use the Horn to cover the comeout bid. I have found it very useful since. Especially when Heavy or I am coming out!!!! Remember that Tunica fans. CrimsonTide

[Blackcloud]

UNHH!!The reason for horn hi-3 is that it makes all horn pays equal UNHH!!Otherwise the 3 becomes a very weak sister

[heavy]

Then again, if you're really looking for a very simple come out strategy - forget all this hedge/hop/prop stuff and just bet the Pass Line. Here's a play that's kind of fun:

$10 Pass Line bet
Toss a 7 or 11 and collect $10
Parlay that $10 plus $10 more for a $30 Pass Line Bet
Throw another 7 or 11 and collect $30 - and regress down to a $10 Pass Line Bet
Lock up a $40 win. Do it again.

[eastcoast]

I dont know if this would be the right thread, does the Doey-Dont qualify for a come out strategy? Or a play in and of itself? Have not heard much about the Doey Dont lately.

[heavy]

Sure, it qualifies. It's a hedge system, though, and not designed to actually WIN you anything on the come out. I could take you through all of the mathematical calculations to show you that the play does not hedge anything in the long run - but I'm not in a math calc mood. Just go with me on this. If you did a vig calculation on the doey don't you'd come up with a house advantage of 2.8% (approximately). That seems like more than the 1.4% (approximately) that you'd expect (or less). What you have to remember after doing the calculation is that you have TWO bets - so you take the 2.8% and divide it by 2 and get right back to 1.4% vig on the bets. That's 1.4% vig on EACH bet.

[Mad Professor]

Doey-Don’t…The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth


What is a Doey-Don’t

As most of you know, a Doey-Don't bet is one where a player places a wager on both the Passline, as well as a wager on the Don’t Passline, at the same time.

~During the Come-Out cycle, the Do-side wins and the Don’t-side loses when either a 7 or an 11 rolls. The opposite thing occurs when the 2 or 3 rolls and the Do-side loses while the Don’t-side wins.

~A Come-Out roll of 12 is the only non-offsetting outcome. In that case the PL portion of the Doey-Don't loses, but it’s a push for the DP portion of it. As it turns out, the seemingly unassuming 12, single-handedly sets and determines the entire house-edge against the Doey-Don’t wager.

~As soon as a box-number is set as the Passline-Point, the offsetting and equalizing effect of the Doey-Don’t takes over once again. That is, as soon as the PL-Point is established, the flat portion of the Doey-Don’t neither wins nor loses since a PL-Point win is offset by a DP-line loss, and vice versa.



Understanding the Doey-Don't

~When you make a Doey-Don't wager, you are making two separate and distinct bets.

That bears repeating because it is a critical point:

~When you make a Doey-Don't wager, you are making two separate and distinct bets.

~The fact that one bet usually wins when the other one loses, and vice versa, is generally what attracts most players to this wager in the first place. They like the way it reduces the Come-Out volatility of their line-bets; however most players do so without fully understanding that reduced volatility comes at a price.

~The outcome of a 12 on the Come-Out is the only non-overlapping win-or-lose proposition in the entire flat-bet portion of the Doey-Don't scenario, in that a 12 is a 'push' for the DP bet and a loser for the PL bet. Every other Come-Out cycle and Point-cycle outcome is offset and equalized for the flat-bet portion of the Doey-Don't wager except for the C-O 12.

~We normally look at dice expectation-distribution in groupings of 36; so when we consider how many wins and how many losses we should expect over a normal random distribution of outcomes, we see that the 12 will show up 1-in-36 rolls. That is where we get the seemingly correct and oft-quoted doubled-up (PL + DP) Doey-Don't house-edge of -2.77% figure from.

Unfortunately that's only part of the story...and it is incorrect due to the incompleteness of the calculation.

~Since we have 'action' on both sides of the line with a Doey-Don't wager; we have to look at the total amount of wagering action we have in play, and then divide our expected-loss into that total amount.

Our friends DeMango, Heavy and Jeffrey47 have previously (and correctly) pointed out that to accurately determine the house-edge against this combination wager, we have to divide our total expected loss into the total amount of Doey-Don’t wagering action to ascertain both the house-edge as well as our return-on-investment.



House-Edge Against the Doey-Don’t

Because the Doey-Don't constitutes two separate bets made at the same time over 36 rolls, they total 72 bets in action, and so any loss or gain has to be divided into that number.

~Say for instance we bet a $5 Doey-Don't with $5 on the DP and $5 on the PL over 36 perfectly-distributed-to-expectancy random rolls of the dice. That's a total of $360 in betting action ($180 on the Do side and $180 on the Don't side).

~If you conducted that same betting-scenario over thousands upon thousands of random trials, the end result would be that the Doey-Don't bettor would lose an average of one (1) betting-unit for each set of 72 combined bets. In this case, that random bettor would lose $5.

~To determine how big the house-edge against this combination Doey-Don't wager is; we have to divide his $5 net-loss into his total wagering action of $360.

~That equates to -1.3888%.

~We can round that off to -1.4%...and that is the house-edge against the Doey-Don't wager.



The Full Doey-Don’t Picture

While the Doey-Don’t neither reduces nor doubles the house-edge against you; it does set you into a situation where you are betting twice as much money…and in the process, as Heavy previously wrote, “You lose at twice the rate at which you would lose if you were only betting on one side alone.”

So in essence, while the house-edge against you doesn’t go up; your expected-losses do, simply because you are now betting twice as much money as you would if you just picked one side or the other instead of both.




How does this Affect the Doey-Don't Odds S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R

If anything, confirming that the house-edge against a shooter isn’t doubled as many people (including myself) initially thought; puts my Doey-Don't Odds S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R concept on even firmer ground as a legitimate D-I skills force-multiplier.

Since we now understand that the flat-bet component of the Doey-Don’t wager has a quite manageable -1.4% house-edge for dice-influencers to overcome, the D-D Odds S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R still remains a very sound advantage-play approach because it maximizes the strongest true-Odds-paying element of our line-bets.

While the Odds-bet remains a zero-sum game for random-rollers; in the hands of a dice-influencer, Odds allow him to leverage and multiply his de-randomizing skills to a degree that can’t be matched by a comparably-valued Place-bet on the same number.

As if that’s not enough benefit, the Doey-Don’t Odds S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R also offers the prospect of a wider variety of shooting opportunities by allowing D-I advantage-players to tackle the less crowded but more expensive $25, $50, and $100 minimum-bet tables that we are seeing more and more of these days.

The D-D Odds Stretcher does that by allowing a precision-shooter to play at tables where the bet-minimums are above his current comfort level, by letting him wager off-setting or near-equal PL and DP wagers (let’s say, $50 or $55 on the Passline and $50 on the Don’t Pass at a $50 table).

What's the benefit to that?

Well, by reducing the volatility on the flat-portion of his line-bets; the skilled D-I’er is now able to invest more of his money on the Odds portion of his advantaged PL-Point where the higher (better than even-money) payout leverages and multiplies his de-randomizing skills by factors of at least (depending on the PL-Point); 20%, 40% and 66%...and it's even more effective for Darkside-shooters.

We’ll be taking a much closer look at just how effectively my Doey-Don't Odds S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R can be used as a skill-based force-multiplier for each specific PL-Point (based on varying levels of dice-influencing skills and SRR-rates over a reasonable number of trials)...but that's for an entirely different discussion.

For now, knowing that the total amount of the combined Doey-Don’t wager has to be included when any net-loss or net-gain is divided into it in order to determine that the correct house-edge against the Doey-Don't is indeed -1.4% is still bad news for random-rollers who think that this is a good way to play.

However the confirmation of that D-D house-edge comes as good news for dice-influencers who want to increase their shooting opportunities at higher-rent $25, $50, and $100 tables while fully recognizing that the reduced line-bet volatility of a Doey-Don't comes with the cost of a house-edge that is exacted against the entire combined value of both their Do-side and Don’t-side line-bets…and that's the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth about the Doey-Don’t.



As always,

Good Luck and Good Skill at the Tables…and in Life.

The Mad Professor

[eastcoast]

Thanks Heavy, MP. The odds stretcher seems to be the best way to take advantage of the D-D, I was thinking that would be a good Darkside situation to study.

[Mad Professor]

The Mad Professor's ODDS S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R…...a Force-Multiplier for your Current Skills


What is the ODDS S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R?

This method begins with an equal or near-equal Doey-Don’t wager.

Ø An example of an equal or offsetting Doey-Don’t would be one where you wager let’s say $25 on the Pass-line and $25 on the Don’t Pass-line.

Ø An example of an unequal or partially-offset Doey-Don’t would be one where you wager let’s say $30 on the Pass-line and $25 on the Don’t Pass-line. In this case there is a $5 difference between the two flat wagers.

Ø The house-edge against a random-roller using this bet is -1.4%, and it is exacted against the entire value of the combined flat-portion of the Doey-Don’t wager. The amount of dice-influencing skill required to overcome that house-advantage is just under SRR-6.2



How Does the ODDS STRETCHER Work?

Once the PL-Point is established, we back our Doey-Don’t bet with as much Odds as we are comfortably able to afford. For today’s discussion we’ll focus on Rightside betting, and leave the whole Darkside discussion for another time.

Ø Let’s say we establish the 9 as the Point in a casino that allows 3x/4x/5x-odds.

Ø We’ve wagered an unequal Doey-Don’t of $30 on the Pass-line and $25 on the Don’t Pass. That means we can back our $30 Pass-line bet with up to four-times its value in Odds ($120) if we so choose.

Ø Since there is only a $5 difference between our PL-bet and our DP-bet, we effectively have 24x-Odds backing up our Passline wager (though in fact it is still only 4-times our actual PL-wager).

Ø Now in random-roller reality, that total wager will still be in negative-expectation territory (even though neither the house nor the random-roller has any edge on the Odds portion of the wager; the house gets it’s pound of flesh from the flat-portion of each line-bet).

However, in the hands of even a modestly-skilled skilled dice-influencer (SRR-6.2); my Odds-Stretcher acts as a significant force-multiplier for those very modest de-randomizing skills; so as you'll see in a moment, minimizing the value of your line-bet and maximizing the value of your Odds-bet makes incredibly great economic sense.

Ø Additionally, my Odds-Stretcher reduces the impact of volatility on the basic even-money-paying (1:1) line-bet for the Come-Out portion of your hand, and let’s you put more of your wagering-weight on the higher-paying (2.0:1, 1.5:1, and 1.2:1) Odds portion of it once the Point is established.

Let’s find out why it works so well even in the unexceptional hands of a SRR-6.2 or better dice-influencer.



Why Does the ODDS S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R Work So Well?

The strength of my Doey-Don't Odds S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-R is that it allows the precision-shooter to put more of his money on the higher-paying, higher-ROI Odds portion of his bet, and a relatively smaller proportional amount of it on the lower-paying, lower-ROI flat-bet part.

That is achieved by having a relatively small differential between the flat portion of his PL-bet and his DP-bet. This approach can also work quite well even where the table-minimum is far beyond what the player would normally be comfortable at if he weren't able to make offsetting or nearly-offsetting line-bets. For example, you could play at a $50 minimum-bet table (with a partially offsetting $55 PL and $50 DP Doey-Don’t)

Ø The value difference between the profit potential of the flat portion of a D-I's line-bet versus the Odds portion of his wager that backs it up, is where the ROI (return-on-investment) difference can be quite staggering.

Ø If a dice-influencer has an edge over a given PL-Point; and the more Odds he can back that Point with, then the greater his skill will be rewarded due to the force-multiplier effect.

Stated another way, the bigger the difference between the amount of money a dice-influencer has on the Passline versus the amount he backs it with in Odds; the greater his return on investment.

The Doey-Don't helps him maximize that force-multiplier difference not only on high-denomination tables, but also in casinos that only offer lowly 2x-Odds or 3x4x5x-Odds and where he wants to artificially 'raise' those posted Odds to boost the force-multiplier effect of his skills.

Wagering more of your money on a higher-return investment (the Odds) while minimizing the at-risk amount on a lower-return investment (the Passline) makes good economic sense, and that is exactly what the skilled dice-influencer is doing when he uses my Doey-Don't Odds Stretcher.

To illustrate what I’m talking about, let’s take a look at the summarized BoneTracker/DiceTool Foundation Frequencies for one of our fellow board-members.

You'll see that depending on the PL-Point he establishes, and the dice-set he uses for his point-cycle shooting; the difference between his edge over the flat portion of his line-bet pales in comparison to his edge on any Odds that he backs the Point with.

…and before you start thinking that this example is an exception to illustrate my point; it is not.

In fact, if your dice-influencing gives you ANY edge over any PL-Point; then your edge will ALWAYS be higher on your ODDS bet than it is on the FLAT portion of it.

In which case; of the money you can comfortably afford to wager on a combined PL w/Odds wager…you'll want the MOST of it on Odds and the LEAST of it on the flat line-bet itself.

Take a look at this shooters roll-stats to see what I mean:




Using the V-3 dice-set:

Ø This shooter has a 3.2% edge over the flat portion of his Passline bet.

When backing the PL-Point with Odds, he garners a 9.5% edge when the Point is 4 or 10, a 12.4% edge when the Point is either 5 or 9, and a 11.6% edge when the PL-Point is a 6 or an 8.



Switching over to the V-2 dice-set:

Ø This shooter has a lower 2.1% edge over the flat portion of his Passline bet.

However, when backing the PL-Point with Odds, he gains a much larger 15.0% edge when the Point is 4 or 10, but a lower 7.0% edge when the Point is either 5 or 9, and it also drops to a still-decent 9.1% edge when the PL-Point is a 6 or an 8.


The big surprise comes from the Parallel-Sixes (P-6) dice-set with the 6/6 on top and the 4/4 facing you:


Ø While the flat portion of his Passline bet is essentially break-even, the Odds portion provides some staggering opportunities for this shooter.

For example, when the PL-Point is either 4 or 10, Odds offer him a 17.9% edge over the house. Similarly, when the Point is 5 or 9, he’s got an 11.5% edge.

When the Point is either 6 or 8 however, his edge is only 2.9%, so he'd probably only want to use the P-6 only as a sniper-set when the PL-Point is 4 or 10.



What Does It All Mean?

Since the house-edge against the flat portion of the combined Doey-Don't wager that a D-I has to overcome is still a quite manageable -1.4% (and is not doubled as some have suggested); and the more Odds a dice-influencer can wager in relation to the difference (if any) between his simultaneous Doey-Don't PL and DP bet; the higher the effective Odds-ratio that he is achieving.

More importantly though is the fact that the D-I gets a far superior return-on-investment on his Odds that he can possibly get from the flat portion of his line-bet...and that's the main strength of my Doey-Don't Odds Stretcher.




What About Volatility?

The concern voiced most frequently about betting Odds, is the whole discussion of volatility.

Ø When you throw a 7-Out, both your flat line-bet as well as your Odds-bet loses at the same time.

Ø When it wins, your line-bet pays 1:1 even-money.

Ø When it wins, the Odds portion of your bet pays 2:1 when the PL-Point is a 4 or 10, 1.5:1 (3:2) when the PL-Point is a 5 or 9, and 1.2:1 (6:5) when the PL-Point is a 6 or 8.

No one needs to tell you that all of those payback-rates are better than the 1:1 even-money payout for the flat portion of your PL-wager.

However, having an edge over the house does not guarantee that every hand you throw during every session you play will be a winning one; and frankly if you go Point-then-7-Out…then a loss is still a loss.

The thing to keep in mind though, is that your player-advantage will manifest itself over a somewhat longer run than one or even two hands, so you can’t take the attitude that just because you lost one or two hands where you wagered Odds and it lost; that betting Odds doesn’t work. Otherwise, you wouldn’t repeat making ANY bets that lost for you more than once or twice.



How Long Does it Take For an Advantage Over the Odds-bet to Prove Itself Out?

Well that really depends on how big of an edge you actually have.

Ø If it's a small edge (of let's say 1% to 2%); then it will probably take many trials before the back and forth volatility that it will likely endure is smoothed out by the large sample of decisions.

Ø If it's a larger edge (of let's say 3% to 6%); then it will probably take significantly fewer trials before the expected back-and-forth volatility is smoothed out enough by a somewhat smaller sampling of decisions.

Ø If it's an even larger edge (of let's say 7% to 20% or even higher); then it will take way fewer trials over a much smaller sampling of decisions for the player-advantage to manifest itself.


The higher your edge, the fewer bet-trials it takes for your advantage to prove itself out, and the lower your bet-volatility will be.

Again though, having an edge over the house does not guarantee that every hand you throw during every session you play will be a winning one.



The objective of my Doey-Don't Odds Stretcher is NOT to encourage a dice-influencer to wager more than his skill or bankroll or comfort-level reasonably merits.

Instead, the objective is to encourage the modestly skilled shooter to take some of the money that he is already comfortably spreading on lower-edge, lower-return wagers, and redeploy some of it to a higher-edge, higher-return Odds wager.

Again, the LOWER your player-edge on a given wager, the HIGHER the volatility you'll likely endure; and the HIGHER your player-edge on a given wager, the LOWER the volatility swings you'll likely have to suffer through.

Put simply, a dice-influencer who bets on a higher-edge, higher-return wager will likely suffer LESS volatility for the SAME dollars wagered than if he was deploying the same money on a lower-edge, lower-return bet.

In the hands of a dice-influencer that is playing with an edge over a given box-number; Odds money on that number will always offer a higher rate-of-return than if the same money was wagered on the corresponding Place-bet.



The Added Benefit of Lowering the Cost of an Expensive Table

You can artificially LOWER the table-minimum by simply placing an almost-equal bet on both the Pass-Line and the Don’t Pass.

For example, you could put a table-minimum bet on the Don’t Pass and a bet on the Pass-Line that is the table-min plus the amount that you are comfortable in actually wagering (let’s say $25 on the DP and $26 on the PL).

At a 3x, 4x, 5x table with the above-noted wager, you could instantly turn those allowable Odds into 78x, 104x, and 130x-Odds simply because of how you’ve used offsetting PL and DP wagers.

As I noted previously though, the house-edge against this bet is -1.4%, and it is exacted against the entire value of the combined flat-portion of the Doey-Don’t wager. However, the level of dice-influencing skill required to overcome that house-advantage is just under SRR-6.2

Up until now, you’ve been thinking that 100x-odds were only available at sawdust joints like Casino Royale and a couple of Midwest boats, while in fact you can turn places like Bellagio, Beau Rivage, Venetian, Taj Mahal, Foxwoods, Caesars, Borgata or any other casino into a high free-Odds joint no matter how pitiful their posted low-multiple free-Odds appear to be.

In the above example, they’ll allow you to take full-Odds behind your Pass-Line wager despite the fact that there is only a one-dollar difference between your PL and DP bets.

To that end, you can make Odds bets for the full value multiple of your line-bet, yet only have one-dollar at actual risk on your base-line wager.

In doing so, you can instantly turn a $25 game into a $1 game and in doing so, they’ll allow you to wager up to 130x-Odds (on the 6 or 8), or 104x-Odds (when your PL-Point is a 5 or 9), or 78x-Odds when your Pass-line Point is a 4 or 10.

If you are using a straight Doey-Don’t, then obviously a $25 game would see the Odds-multiple restricted to 75x, 100x, and 125x.


But let’s see how that plays out in a real-world scenario:

Ø On the Come-Out roll I avoid getting overly fancy; opting instead to establish the PL-Point as soon as possible.

Ø I hedge my PL-wager with a $1 bet straight up on the 12-midnight so I don’t have to do an expensive PL-bet replacement in case the 12 rolls. That way, no C-O numbers can harm either my PL or DP wagers.

Ø Once the Point is established, I back up the PL-Point with as much Odds as I am comfortable with.

Let me point out the obvious at this juncture and say that this play is not for the weak of heart, the queasy of stomach or the light of bankroll. It is designed for the player that is more than adequately funded, and who is looking for maximum free-Odds and the lowest base-bets possible. This play accomplishes that goal.

Ø If my PL-Point is a 6 or 8, then I back it up with full Odds. In this case (at a 3x, 4x, 5x table), you are allowed to wager up to five times your Passline-bet in Odds. So with $26 on the PL, you can back it up with a maximum of $130 in Odds.

Ø The fact that I’ve only got a $1 difference between my $25 DP-bet and my $26 PL-bet, means that I’ve turned it into a $1 minimum-bet game, but with allowable Odds of 78x, 104x, and 130x!

Obviously you can do the same thing with nearly offsetting Come/Don’t Come bets as well. Equally, a skilled Darkside shooter can do the opposite thing with Odds on his Don’t Pass line-wager too. In this case, he’d be allowed to bet up to six times his DP line-wager.

Ø Likewise, a skilled Rightside Precision-Shooter can instantly turn a $50/$51 base-bet into a 260x-Odds game (on the 6 or 8) or a 208x-Odds game when his PL-Point is a 5 or 9; and a 156x-Odds game when the Pass-line Point is a 4 or 10.

Again, it is critically important that you are adequately funded before you raise your bet-level to this echelon or beyond.

As your confidence and shooting-steadiness improves on the high-dollar tables, you can ratchet things up by simply increasing the bet-size difference between your two base-line PL/DP wagers or completely removing your DP “table-cheapener” altogether.

However, if playing at the higher-limit tables makes you too nervous, uncomfortable or anxious; then perhaps you shouldn’t play at them at all.

It is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that you remember that this whole force-multiplier concept is based on your validated advantage.

If your shooting shows a BoneTracker-verified consistent advantage over the house, and your Odds-betting is properly matched to fully exploit that advantage; then it just makes good economic sense to not only get the dice into your skilled paws as often as reasonably possible; but also to use my ODDS STRETCHER as a Force-Multiplier as frequently as possible.



Good Luck and Good Skill at the Tables…and in Life.

The Mad Professor
Copyright © 2003/2005

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Excellent article. About the only time I recommend the Doey Don't or any of it's variants is as what I'd call a table minimum reduction play. If the table minimum is $25 and you're looking to play a $10 game then play a $35 DP and a $25 Pass Line bet - or vice versa. In a 3-4-5x odds game you'll get to play $75 - $100 - $125 odds, which does give you a "stretch" as MP noted. Nicely done.