Welcome to the Crapless Craps Corner

[Tgold]

Hi thnick
"...If a crapless table allows a don't bet it kind of defeats what the casino is going for here doesn't it?..."

I agree thnick/imo that is one of the reasons we havnt seen cas offer the Dont on crapless(until recently & only just a few cas). The Lay with the extremes/ a part time continuous Pass/come could potentially set up a good winning regime. IMO not huge wins but consistent wins.

An acquaintance does well by starting with the extremes and at same time starts a continuous pass/come til he receives a certain % of initial outlay. He wins with it and according to him the main nemesis is not seeing a 7 for 23 consec tosses(which doesnt happen very often), and or no or very few extremes show or no extremes early in progression. I think a Lay incorporated early could improve a system such as above.

He can only play at a table with a big spread and prefers 10-10K. Not many cas offer this spread. He does bust his buyin every once in awhile. I dont play this way though have utilized a similar approach in some of my betting regimes(without the Lay).


All the best,

[DarthNater]

Since a bunch of us are headed to Biloxi next week and the potential exists for a Crapless Confab, I thought its time to bump this thread.

I also have been wargaming how to attack the Extremes without my favorite tool the Lay bet, since there's no Lays on Biloxi crapless that I'm aware of. After chatting with Parson I was leaning toward a $20 horn on the come-out and then talked myself into a $25 World. Out of the 3-4 Crapless tables there, that I have played, I think after two trips I've only figured only one out, so far-if hitting two Talls and a Small counts as figured. I have also been reducing my lay by using a bigger PL bet when I shoot, but that's only one roll insurance, like the Horn is only a one roll play for the Extremes.

This past weekend, BankerDude and I were goofing at a crapless table. Goofing is my new word for good toss - bad result. One of his favorite plays (when he knows I'm using my Horn-rich set-which is also an outside number rich set) is to bet a field and a come. The come is insurance, that travels outside and then he uses the field winner as odds on it. On prior occasions I have used a Field progression with that horn set to build bets. Then I see what Tgold's friend does:

An acquaintance does well by starting with the extremes and at same time starts a continuous pass/come til he receives a certain % of initial outlay. He wins with it and according to him the main nemesis is not seeing a 7 for 23 consec tosses(which doesn't happen very often), and or no or very few extremes show or no extremes early in progression. I think a Lay incorporated early could improve a system such as above.

Now I'm wondering about how effective a continuous come & field play might be, especially with a Horn set that produces over 380 fields per 720 rolls. That ratio already makes the Field a better than even money bet. So todays Question is who plays Come Bets on Crapless? How many? and what trigger(s) do you use?

Let's hear it guys, DN8R

[Tgold]

Hi DN8R

"...with a Horn set that produces over 380 fields per 720 rolls. ..."

That alone creates all kinds of great wagering opportunities

"...That ratio already makes the Field a better than even money bet."

If I remember correctly a Field paying (3x on 12) will put the Field wager at a 1.18 avg payout per F hit, providing one just produces the avg 36-matrix results. Its even better if we can just increase the the F hits by one and gets turbocharged if >=1 more 2 or 12 hit.

I will comment on crapless wagering approaches with pass-come by this weekend as they are somewhat lengthy/its late.


All the best,

[Big O]

I was leaning toward a $20 horn on the come-out and then talked myself into a $25 World.

What am i missing? If you are using a horn rich set that you have confidence in why the one roll bet as opposed to just working the extremes? If you are the shooter the pass line makes the difference in money risked small. Is it just the payout on the 2 &12? I always liked the crapless because i didnt have to place a horn to protect my pass line.

[220Inside]

I believe the use of horn bets on the comeout is to avoid working the extreme outside bets and hedging them with a lay bet or any 7. In Lord Vader's case, it's not being able to make that lay bet which is causing the shift to use a horn bet instead.

I can understand the reasoning here. I have used the working extremes + any 7 bet before. That any 7 bet becomes a real bankroll drain over the course of a session. If you had lay bets available, it's a much more palatable option, as you can just lay the number for 1 toss while working the extremes with a lot less downside risk. Using a horn bet in lieu of either of those choices seems like the best available option.

[Parson]

Well, after reading this from N8Ter this morn, I went downstairs with my coffee.... as if I walked right up to the table .... ok, $20 horn to start, set for my horns....

here was my toss in order ...

3, 3, 12, 3, 2, 7 That would be a helluva come out roll. I know i would not have parlayed - so not gonna pretend. Also whether or not a crapless table is not known of course. The most i would have done was $20,$40,$80, $100, ????? no idea what I would have done before the 2 rolled ...

How would you have played it?

[DarthNater]

I was leaning toward a $20 horn on the come-out and then talked myself into a $25 World.

What am i missing? If you are using a horn rich set that you have confidence in why the one roll bet as opposed to just working the extremes? If you are the shooter the pass line makes the difference in money risked small. Is it just the payout on the 2 &12? I always liked the crapless because i didnt have to place a horn to protect my pass line.

Well. I'm using two groups of 4 crossed sixes sets where for 2's the four sets have x11x as the pattern and for 12s the four patterns are x66x.... that's TOP-TOP-FRONT-FRONT notation. Since I'm tossing predominantly from straight out that longer distance makes pitch control more challenging and I see either 1-6 or 6-1 combos more often that I'd like. Yeah, variance is a beach; sure 1-1 and 6-6 are preferred, but that's what can happen at longer distances; so I'm doing the Heavy press variant of every I get one of those ON-AXIS combos - I press the World.

Also remember I also have ATS bets up and usually a working field bet as well, so when I'm doing No Four lays its because the four is lowest of the six box numbers for that series of sets. What interesting is I'm tracking rolls in casino to validate that over time as part of my risk assessment on refining this strategy. I will need to build that tracking history at Biloxi as I'm coming with different sets this time, DN8R

[220Inside]

Well, after reading this from N8Ter this morn, I went downstairs with my coffee.... as if I walked right up to the table .... ok, $20 horn to start, set for my horns....

here was my toss in order ...

3, 3, 12, 3, 2, 7 That would be a helluva come out roll. I know i would not have parlayed - so not gonna pretend. Also whether or not a crapless table is not known of course. The most i would have done was $20,$40,$80, $100, ????? no idea what I would have done before the 2 rolled ...

How would you have played it?

When I'm playing a comeout game with horn bets, I've started doing go up 2 units if I toss a 2 or 12 and 1 unit on a 3 or 11, with the "unit" being the current size of the bet. On long sequences like that, tracking the unit change as the bet size increases, really starts to bump up the bet size quickly. But you're still holding back a good amount in your rack.

So in your toss sequence (very nice by the way), that would have worked out to horn bets of 20, 40, 80, 240, 480, 1420.

In profit terms on each toss, if my math is correct, that would have worked out to 40 + 80 + 380 + 720 + 2580 = $3800 profit

Was this sequence with your 6-4/5-6 set?

[Parson]

When I'm playing a comeout game with horn bets, I've started doing go up 2 units if I toss a 2 or 12 and 1 unit on a 3 or 11, with the "unit" being the current size of the bet. On long sequences like that, tracking the unit change as the bet size increases, really starts to bump up the bet size quickly. But you're still holding back a good amount in your rack.

So in your toss sequence (very nice by the way), that would have worked out to horn bets of 20, 40, 80, 240, 480, 1420.

In profit terms on each toss, if my math is correct, that would have worked out to 40 + 80 + 380 + 720 + 2580 = $3800 profit

Was this sequence with your 6-4/5-6 set?

Thanks for your view, It might of been time to pass the dice and cash out! and yes it was that set which has bizarre strings or runs with certain things, that single pitch 7 is spooky - and yes my seven was a 6-1

[DarthNater]

Well, after reading this from N8Ter this morn, I went downstairs with my coffee.... as if I walked right up to the table .... ok, $20 horn to start, set for my horns....

here was my toss in order ...

3, 3, 12, 3, 2, 7 That would be a helluva come out roll. I know i would not have parlayed - so not gonna pretend. Also whether or not a crapless table is not known of course. The most i would have done was $20,$40,$80, $100, ????? no idea what I would have done before the 2 rolled ...

How would you have played it?

What an AWESOME string (with caffeine to boot) and a great segway for me to remind everyone about a spreadsheet I posted last year for wargaming horn bets Here's the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d ... p=sharing

To answer your question after fooling around with this spreadsheet, I developed the opinion that if you're going to play GWAG then PLAY!

Use ALL the proceeds from that first hit. Let's say we had a $15 PL that went down, so that $20 horn pays net $60, so I replace the PL leaving $45 and Press the horn to $60. Now we are going to have some FUN! That $60 horn pays net $180, replace your PL, so $165 left. Keep the black chip and press the horn to $120, put the boys on the horn with the change. Then that 12 pays $900, net $810, less $15 for replacing the PL = $795. I think I'd keep the Purple chip, press the horn to $300. Bingo that Shocka pays $1125, net $900, then less $15 for the PL....$885. Again, I'd keep the Purple chip, and press the horn to $500. Then the Snake pays $3750, net $3375, replace the PL, gives $3360. I want to keep those 3 Yellows, I'd probably go to either $700 or $800, as once you're up in this altitude the shrinkage from the 3 losing parts is apparent, even more so if its now a World.

So I've got three yellows and two purples, but knowing me I would probably have moved from the Horn to the World after that Midnight, especially if I was shooting from the end, that would be less, but who knows until you're in the heat of the battle. The start is a bit more planned as basically I'm starting at $5 per bet; the next is $10 per bet; then $15 per bet. Then double to $30 per bet after the first 2/12 which is the MP "Shooting from the Darkside" play. Afterwards make it divisible by 4 so the crew doesn't have to do too many fractions. My quick math says that's a net of $3845; now since it's a crapless table, my next choice is what is my starting bet on the four extremes. BTW I'd have also started with a $15 Field.

By the way, you know there's at least one Yo-rich set in your Coaster Column to flip those 3s, lol, DN8R

[220Inside]

When I'm playing a comeout game with horn bets, I've started doing go up 2 units if I toss a 2 or 12 and 1 unit on a 3 or 11, with the "unit" being the current size of the bet. On long sequences like that, tracking the unit change as the bet size increases, really starts to bump up the bet size quickly. But you're still holding back a good amount in your rack.

So in your toss sequence (very nice by the way), that would have worked out to horn bets of 20, 40, 80, 240, 480, 1420.

In profit terms on each toss, if my math is correct, that would have worked out to 40 + 80 + 380 + 720 + 2580 = $3800 profit

Was this sequence with your 6-4/5-6 set?

Thanks for your view, It might of been time to pass the dice and cash out! and yes it was that set which has bizarre strings or runs with certain things, that single pitch 7 is spooky - and yes my seven was a 6-1

Yeah, I saw that set you were using in your latest YT video on crapless and the single pitch 7's on that set would have had me nervous, but if that is what BT is giving you, the data and numbers don't lie.

One thing I wanted to ask you about on the video was the string of 2 or 3 comeout 7's you tossed at the start. I might have used those opportunities to bump up the 3 way craps bet with some of the payout from the PL winner, rather than just going back up with minimum bet amounts, especially since you weren't on the ATS that would have needed to be replaced.

[220Inside]

Well, after reading this from N8Ter this morn, I went downstairs with my coffee.... as if I walked right up to the table .... ok, $20 horn to start, set for my horns....

here was my toss in order ...

3, 3, 12, 3, 2, 7 That would be a helluva come out roll. I know i would not have parlayed - so not gonna pretend. Also whether or not a crapless table is not known of course. The most i would have done was $20,$40,$80, $100, ????? no idea what I would have done before the 2 rolled ...

How would you have played it?

What an AWESOME string (with caffeine to boot) and a great segway for me to remind everyone about a spreadsheet I posted last year for wargaming horn bets Here's the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d ... p=sharing

To answer your question after fooling around with this spreadsheet, I developed the opinion that if you're going to play GWAG then PLAY!

Use ALL the proceeds from that first hit. Let's say we had a $15 PL that went down, so that $20 horn pays net $60, so I replace the PL leaving $45 and Press the horn to $60. Now we are going to have some FUN! That $60 horn pays net $180, replace your PL, so $165 left. Keep the black chip and press the horn to $120, put the boys on the horn with the change. Then that 12 pays $900, net $810, less $15 for replacing the PL = $795. I think I'd keep the Purple chip, press the horn to $300. Bingo that Shocka pays $1125, net $900, then less $15 for the PL....$885. Again, I'd keep the Purple chip, and press the horn to $500. Then the Snake pays $3750, net $3375, replace the PL, gives $3360. I want to keep those 3 Yellows, I'd probably go to either $700 or $800, as once you're up in this altitude the shrinkage from the 3 losing parts is apparent, even more so if its now a World.

So I've got three yellows and two purples, but knowing me I would probably have moved from the Horn to the World after that Midnight, especially if I was shooting from the end, that would be less, but who knows until you're in the heat of the battle. The start is a bit more planned as basically I'm starting at $5 per bet; the next is $10 per bet; then $15 per bet. Then double to $30 per bet after the first 2/12 which is the MP "Shooting from the Darkside" play. Afterwards make it divisible by 4 so the crew doesn't have to do too many fractions. My quick math says that's a net of $3845; now since it's a crapless table, my next choice is what is my starting bet on the four extremes. BTW I'd have also started with a $15 Field.

By the way, you know there's at least one Yo-rich set in your Coaster Column to flip those 3s, lol, DN8R

Funny how we arrived at pretty much exactly the same profit amount using pretty different press schedules on the world from that sequence.

[Parson]

Yeah, I saw that set you were using in your latest YT video on crapless and the single pitch 7's on that set would have had me nervous, but if that is what BT is giving you, the data and numbers don't lie.

One thing I wanted to ask you about on the video was the string of 2 or 3 comeout 7's you tossed at the start. I might have used those opportunities to bump up the 3 way craps bet with some of the payout from the PL winner, rather than just going back up with minimum bet amounts, especially since you weren't on the ATS that would have needed to be replaced.

It is in the Coaster Column that I am in these days, and there's plenty of single pitch scares in that column .... but I do have a secondary column as a back up if the single pitches become prevalent.

As for the comeout sevens, you are probably right, but mentally - I am always on the ATS - which is why I think I just did what I did.

[Big O]

I believe the use of horn bets on the comeout is to avoid working the extreme outside bets and hedging them with a lay bet or any 7. In Lord Vader's case, it's not being able to make that lay bet which is causing the shift to use a horn bet inste

ad.

yea, i was getting that part, what i wasnt considering is the minimums yall will face at the BEAU on the weekends. I was thinking 40 min outsides with a 15 pass so only 25 risked, but it will probably be 100 outsides with 25 pass (not correct bets i realize just rounding off)

Was this sequence with your 6-4/5-6 set?

I have tossed this and its cousin 6-5/4-6 but i find i single pitch worse than i double pitch so i have just rolled my 6-5/6-4 to the 5 and 4 on top which gives me 6s or 8s since my double pitches seem to be top/ bottom

[220Inside]

I haven't checked my BT data to see what that set would look like for me, but at first glance I suspect it would not fare very well. But it works for Ed and his toss characteristics.

[Parson]

I haven't checked my BT data to see what that set would look like for me, but at first glance I suspect it would not fare very well. But it works for Ed and his toss characteristics.

Its streaky like that tho …. I tossed 41 in LFC with it, but had two come out 7s during the toss … im experimenting with arch before before biloxi. The flatter the better onlanding.

We can expect $25 crapless at beau and hard rock with no bonus. Harrahs has bonus and will likely be $15 table.

[220Inside]

The only surprising one in that list is $25 at Hard Rock. Beau is generally always higher and Harrah's lower. Other good places to shoot as well.

[Big O]

The only surprising one in that list is $25 at Hard Rock.

HR was at 15 when i arrived on a Monday but went to 25 on Thursday in prep for the weekend. This was several months ago though.

[DarthNater]

Today, I saw a Crapless rarity....

A randie tossed a come out 2; then made it. Next come out was a 12, then he made it. Two points later, a come out Yo; that he eventually also made. He tossed 42 times had 6 ace-deuces sprinkled along with 2 comeout sevens to nix the ATS. He had no fours.

DN8R

[heavy]

Wish I'd been there to capitalize on it.