Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

I should also point out that if you are only recording the sum of the two dice, you are missing a whole lot of information. You need to record both dice, and each die (left right independently) for best results if you want to figure out what sets you should be using to come up with a good strategy to grind against to get an edge.

I have the numbers, but these are actual casino rolls. I know of no way to distinguish L/R in the casino.

11 12 13 14 15 16 21 22 23 24 25 26 31 32 33 34 35 36 41 42 43 44 45 46 51 52 53 54 55 56 61 62 63 64 65 66 <- 36 outcomes

11 12 13 14 15 16 22 23 24 25 26 33 34 35 36 44 45 46 55 56 66 <- 21 outcomes

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 <- 11 outcomes

yo crap box seven <- 3 outcomes

non-seven seven <- 2 outcomes

roll <- 1 outcome

At some casinos they count your rolls for you (Fremont). You can, in fact, distinguish left die from right die in the casino for more than half of the rolls if you try. Most people don't try because they are busy doing or thinking other stuff.

Recording from the domain of 36 outcomes you can have a lot more information on how to profit.

freak wrote:I have the numbers, but these are actual casino rolls. I know of no way to distinguish L/R in the casino.

I haven't done it to record, but have watched to make mental note. If you keep your eye on only one die until it stops, you can then look at the other and record them independently much easier. It is especially easy if you are recording each other's rolls and not your own.

Even if you don't know which is which knowing the face of each die could be beneficial to know of you are hitting some primaries or off axis

Money in the line IS the reason to pay attention.

Say you are using 3v and most of your 7 s are 3-4. This means you are double pitching... what else comes from a 3 v double pitch? If you see 3s and Yes it might be time to call bets off...

I find the discussion that it is not worth it to write down both numbers to be very entertaining. You will certainly have shots where you don't know which die is which. No argument there. Everything else is just a challenge as to how close to 100% you can tell the left from the right. Some people might be able to do 10% and some people 90% or better. There's absolutely no way that anyone could tell me that nobody can ever even a single time tell the left die from the right die in the casino environment. If you are recording rolls, you could make a note of when you know which was the left and which was the right and when you don't know and end up with better data.

But my take-away from the discussion is that most people just aren't that serious about doing everything possible to learn the most that they can from their throw. Most people think that recording the sum is "good enough" and it's too difficult to try any harder.

That much I find educational about folks. And I definitely agree with anyone who suggests that most folks don't really care to put in the extra effort and can come up with plenty of excuses for why they think the extra data is of no use or not worth obtaining.

Jeeze, did you even get the point of my post?

I wasnt saying what anyone should or shouldnt do...I was giving ONE example of how tracking pips instead of totals is better than just writing a total. I can think of several more reasons as well... Does that mean its worth it for everyone? Not for those who are not too serious...

I had a lot of free time and enough disposable income to invest both in learning about dice as played in North American casinos..Much like others I sought out books,videos and experienced CRAPS PLAYERS to learn some basics...Got the WAGER MAKING ( betting) down to manageable
Felt comfortable with making BETS ( WAGERS) both with and against the dice and had my act down to being smooth with transitions from DO SIDE to DON'T SIDE and back if indicated....
As a bet placer and not a shooter one has some options in entering and exiting the game with more freedom than the shooter..Also it is easier to finagle your wagers with little attention drawn to YOU.
On a trip to Las vegas I met a group of engineers from Germany...They were the first " Dice Controllers" that I had recognized for what they were doing or attempting to accomplish
....
They were having some success with pitching an off axis toss....Several weeks after I was at the
Biloxi Bell Casino , and a retired log truck contractor was having impressive good fortune with
a similar manipulation of the dice....
i was impressed that there were 2 diametrically opposed backgrounds giving a go at something I had considered unlikely prior to seeing and interviewing with these folks.
The search for how this actually works started my journey into D I ville......
......

In time I was able to see the wisdom of maintaining ON AXLE or ON AXIS toss........

Since having an active interest in such...I have at times been able to recognize and understand
some of my off axis tosses in that the LEFT DIE inside face ends the roll paired up with the
RIGHT HAND DIE top face.....At times I get away with the result in that I at times show repeating numbers ( good for anyone betting that number) ....The HOWEVER FACTOR is
too frequently the off axis result is THE SEVEN......While TOLERATED on the Come Out roll
no so good with active wagers tossed at the wrong time..........

If you are keeping track of your set and able to note the top faces,and inside contact or ( KISSING FACES of the dice) you may be able to identify
THE EXACT WHY OF CERTAIN INDICATOR NUMBERS showing just prior to a strong run of BOX NUMBERS brought to a halt by THE SEVEN OUT.....

TWO WORDS > BONE TRACKER

Just me saying

W C
Hope this revision makes it more so clear

Wild child you lost me there somewhere between Payroll deductions, Price Line negotiator and the Germans...

Freak,

Been reading your posts for sometime mainly because I also play at Cherokee from time to time.
Cherokee's tables are just plain dreadful, but that doesn't mean you can't make money by playing the Right Side. The major problem I see with your play is you are keeping your bets up to long after you made some $$$. There is nothing wrong with telling the dealer after 1 or 2 hits, take me down. 2 hits should cover your PL bets, and after 2 hits you also want to remove your odds. You may want to incorporate this with so form of Doey-Don't method of play. When you are dealt lemons, such as your Cherokee session, learn how to make lemonade. That is my 2 cents worth of advice.

BTW, not sure where you live, but Nitro, WV, just outside Charleston, has much better tables than Cherokee, however they only have 2 tables.

TT

I hope Freak takes these little bits of criticism not as an attack on him, but rather helpful suggestions to take some coin off those bouncy tables. People laugh when I say this, but craps is a thinking mans game. You have to be so consistent it can be madding at times, you have to be constantly thinking what dice set, what grip, where you want to land the dice, what's your bet, what's the pay off is, is the pay off correct, do I press it, did I press it, same bet, take me down, and the table's different composition doesn't make it any easier. But that is why I love this game! LOL

Pressit - I learned to play craps in December 2012...L in April of this year. We are very new to the game and welcome all opinions. Keep it coming. Our style and favorite plays change weekly...sometimes nightly. We had great luck with going up big then regress after two roll the first time we tried it live. We DO take two hits then regress or come down. But two weeks ago got creamed with PSOs and near PSOs. It takes a LOT of $12 and $24 wins to make up for just a few -$66 PSOs. This trip we regrouped and played smaller. That took some pressure off the shooting and everything went better. The table was cold Sunday night but warm today. A lot of good rolls by many shooters. It felt good just to see the dice making it to 6-10 rolls on most shooters for an hour or so. You're right, there is SO much to think about.

To those commenting about tracking L/R die - it is probably possible sometimes, but I am too focused on other things during live play to have any desire to try and track it. L writes the numbers but she usually can't see the dice at all. I see them but I am focused on hitting my spot, then getting the numbers to L, then making bet decisions, then regrouping for the next roll. I used to track all shooters. But now I usually just track mine because it feels good to just play sometimes. After all, we are there for entertainment with hopes of winning money. I think I made the most money today on two other shooters that caught nice long hands. One in the 30s I tracked with chips but didn't record. I got in late but full pressed the 6 & 8 then regressed. I was off on his seven out so we did well. On my longest roll I made very little because I was off a lot and not on the outside numbers at first. When I bet on others I actually notice the trends better and aim my full focus on betting. Trying to bet and shoot and track takes a lot of mental energy.

freak wrote: But two weeks ago got creamed with PSOs and near PSOs.It takes a LOT of $12 and $24 wins to make up for just a few -$66 PSOs. .

One huge advantage to a small target is the quick recovery from a PSO. If you are playing $66 inside it takes 4 hits to get out of the hole. If you had all your money on one number you would recover and have a small profit after one hit.

With a single target you also double your exposed money after one hit... With the exception of your pass/ DP bet. Again it takes 4 hits to get in the black playing inside numbers.

Well lack of bankroll definitely forced us off of wide target play. It was more boring yesterday to place only a $12 eight and wait for that to hit, but it was also rewarding to turn $12 into $60 on a nice hand. It meant missing a lot of potential winnings, but also meant we missed a lot of PSOs too. One thing bad about our home play is that if we are in the mood for a big win we can just keep taking more markers until we finally get a nice hand and win. Sometimes we start with $200, lose. Then take $500, lose. Then take $1000, lose. Then take $2000 and have a great hand and win $5k. All is well and we go to bed happy. Live play forces patience that we don't need to have at home. I can't possible play with black in the casino but often do at home. We'll have to keep working on that. At any rate it's good to be feeling confident again that we can keep playing on our smaller bankroll.