Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Grafstein really just had a couple of basic principles he followed, regardless of whether he started out playing the Don'ts or the Do's. First, determine your betting stake. Second, find a qualified shooter. He qualified shooters by whether or not they threw winners. Next, follow the trend or streak. If a player was throwing winners - continue to bet with hiim until he threw a loser. Then stop betting on him. Let's say a player tossed a couple of sevens followed by a making couple of points - then tossed a come out craps number. That would signal the end of betting on that player for Grafstein if he were betting the past line. Grafstein preached slow, methodical progressions when a table was streaking - and he believed you should regress to your original minimum bet when a streak ended.

Ol` Sam also said that a table could turn from hot to cold or cold to hot with one roll of the dice. I pondered that statement , studied it , rehashed it , observed rolls from shooters , both random and controlled and decided that was IT. My ho-hum attitude at the craps table is directly a result of that statement.

Reading the Dice Doctor`s book caused the biggest change in my craps play . I began playing the way I thought was the best way for me to play and I "don`t look back."

Cowtippin`

Well, I always liked Grafstein's "you only back a winning horse" philosophy. I'm of the opinion that roughly two out of three times you're better off starting out betting the Don'ts than the Do's. I'm also a believer in following - not bucking - the trend. As for DI's and their potential impact on the game - if you're following the trend then you'll probably be working (and winning) more than Scoblete will with his Five Count. So yeah, I think in large part I agree with Grafstein (and John Patrick and a lot of other old school players). As for DI and its impact on our game - I think it is much less than a lot of people believe. At the end of the day there are very few DI's out there who practice enough and hone their skills to a level that will actually allow them to pose a threat to the casinos - and most of them do not pose a threat because they don't know how to bet. Which gets us to the subject of Grafstein's progressions. I think if we could all learn to run conservative progressions that let us lock up at least half of our winnings on every decision we'd be far ahead of the game. Will we do it? Of course not (and I include myself in that statement). Yeah, I can grind with the best of them. But after awhile I'm going to turn into an action player. Which I why I always tell folks I'm a "serious recreational gambler" and not a professional gambler. Sure, I want to win. But I also want to be entertained. What about you?

I am in the casino to " win " - if I want to be " entertained " - I will frequent a " house of ill-repute " or visit the in-laws - same difference

Let me ask you this. Would you take a job that requires you to sit at a table ten to twelve hours a day, breathing bad air, putting up with jerks and deafening noise just to make - say $6 an hour? I ask you that because that is exactly what a lot of professional blackjack players do. Play 10 - 12 hours a day - usually for less than minimum wage - often carrying their own bottle of water around with them because they're too cheap to toke the beverage server because it eats into their EV . . . . well, you get the drift. THOSE guys go to the casino to win. The casino's stockholders invest in the casino because THEY like to win. And MAYBE you play craps to win. But I can tell you after playing this game for just shy of forty years and teaching DI for over ten - that most of the guys I know do not play to win. A few play not to lose. Most are just interested in losing less. If they were in it for the win they wouldn't be caught dead at one of those "jailbreak" sessions with a dozen other DI's - they would rarely play a session longer than 40 minutes - and they would rarely play more than one session a day. And in that regard I suspect that they would be much different from Grafstein, who was more than willing to stand at the table for 8 - 10 hours waiting for a hand to develop. Then again, maybe his feet were in better shape than mine.

Since I play the Donts 100% of the time , always a DP, never making any rightside wagers during a session, I also use ol` Sam`s rule only to lose one wager per shooter.

His bankroll, session stake and money management rules have probably helped me to continue my craps play more than anything.

Sam chased trends .

I used to chase women .

Now I like choppy tables.

I like my pork barbecue pulled.

Damn, since reading this thread , I am thinking about starting "Cowtippin` ", again.

Damn you Heavy, for starting this thread.

When I used to holler , "Cowtippin!!!!", it only embarrassed my wife . But one night at GS it did scare the hell out of Golfer. Hehehe.

I have been trying to get Gail to play craps. We could use "The Dylanacci". I would play it from the Donts and she could play it from the Rightside. We could use green chips or blackchips as partners.

Knowing Gail , she wouldn`t be like me ,having patience and discipline. She would want to chase after all the numbers and when the dealer would tell her about taking odds, heck, she`d do what he said.

I have all ready told her why I do not play the Rightside and why I think taking odds is one of the worst bets on a craps table----right up there with all the prop bets. I guess you could call taking odds insurance. Maybe she would understand my thoughts about odds , if I took it from that approach when I explain these things to her that she doesn`t hear or pay any attention to.

Okay, time for a Grafstein quote:

"The greatest gambler in the world has less than nothing to brag about."

There you go . . .

Do not let this stop you from posting those trip reports, however.

Okay, folks. I promised this back before the last bout with stomach flu. Guess it's time to s**t or get off the pot.

Sam Grafstein's Inside Number plus Pass Line Method of Play.

As before, I'll try to break this down into simple steps. See similar steps above because I am not going to repeat everything that's already been posted.

1. Determine your betting stake. In a $5 game you want to be able to bet a minimum PL wager plus (let's say 1X) odds plus a two unit wager on the five, six, eight, and nine. At most that's going to be $54 per player. With six players at the table you're looking at about a $325 minimum buy in.

2. Rack the betting stake in the front rail and reserve the back rail for wins then WAIT for an eligible shooter. See above posts for shooter qualifications.

3. Play $5 on PL on qualified shooter. Point is set. Bet the inside numbers. You'll bet all of them if the four or ten is the point. Bet only the ones you are missing if an inside number is the point. On every place bet hit you press according to the schedule at the end of this post.

4. If the shooter sevens out you start over with minimum bets on next shooter.

5. If shooter makes his pass your next PL bet will be $7. As long as the shooter continues to make passes you will follow the progression mentioned in the earlier post. Whenever a shooter makes a pass and you set a new point you'll replace the last point number made with a two unit place bet and follow the press guide.

6. Any Pass Line winner (come out seven or eleven) is parlayed. A $5 bet parlays to $10, then to $20 as outlined in the earlier posts.

7. Your key to stop betting on any shooter is a come-out craps roll.

8. Once the dice have made a turn around the table count up your back rack and determine if you are going to continue to play - and at what level.

Many of us have used similar strategies for years with good results.

The PL progression, as I mentioned, is covered in another post earlier in the thread (it is the same as the DP progression). However, the Place bet progression is slightly different. Here you go:

5 and 9

10 - 15 - 25 - 35 - 50 - 75 - 125 - 175 - 250 - 350 - 500 - 700 - 1000 - 1500 - 2500 . . .

6 and 8

12 - 18 - 30 - 42 - 60 - 90 - 120 - 180 - 300 - 420 - 600 - 900 - 1200 - 1800 - 3000 . . .

.

The Dice Doctor Sam Grafstein

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A CRAPS CLASSIC: TO PLAY LIKE A PRO LEARN FROM A PRO by Sam Grafstein

Learn how to play craps from the master....one of the greatest professionals of all time! Includes many powerful playing techniques including the Pensioner's Play; the Across the Board Play; the Basic Strategy Play for the Wrong Better; the 100% Guaranteed Winning Bet; the True Count Play; and many more incredibly simple, but strong, plays not included in Sam's other classic book, The Dice Doctor. The only book ever given a 4-star rating by the Crapsmen Newsletter.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
also wrote another book : "TO PLAY LIKE A PRO LEARN FROM A PRO"

I do not recall anyone reviewing or recommending this other book.

Is "To Play Like.............." significantly different from the original "Dice Doctor"
or "Dice Doctor-Revised edition "

W C

Heavy!!

If you read sams book you will learn that , when
SAM parleyed the pass or D/P he did NOT!!.. put odds on..

I have to say this..
IF most craps players usad (sams) methods-&-money mng.The casinos would
either change the betting rules or hut the tables down..

Yeah, I realize that Sparqee. Occasionally I'll take that approach, but most of the time I'll put at least single odds out and usually I'll put more.

Found the book in paperback REALLY cheap !!
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... ice+doctor

Found the book really cheap in paperback :
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... ice+doctor

I downloaded Dice Doctor off of iTunes for $10 a couple of months ago. Headed to Shreveport in a couple of weeks, looking forward to trying a couple of his techniques. The s-t-r-e-t-c-h play has been my favorite so far in some practice sounds on the computer. Who knows what will happen with real dice though!

Sam Grafstein was not a proficient dice tosser. He more favored placing wagers and winning MONEY .

My take is that a proficient shooter consistently make money on his own shooting .To do such the D I needs to perfect his shooting abilities and have a WAGERING PLAN OF ACTION down cold........

With that said,the D I will need practice his wagering moves as well as his ability to INFLUENCE DICE TOSSES.

Just me saying

W C

Little Joe wrote:I still use a few plays I learned from the Dice Doctor Revised and Expanded book, especially the Converted Come Bet.

In the opening chapters of this latest book he writes; "The Succesfull Gambler Must Grind", and advocates "Sensitive Progressive Betting" on either the Do or Don't line. The line progression numbers begin at .75 Cents, 1.75, 2.50, 3.50 and continue on the same as Heavy posted. They are completed with either single or double odds.

Wow! .75-cent games. Is there even .75 cent promotional specials going on anywhere now-a-days?

Anyway, after a loss, the progression starts over at the beginning.

He also suggests taking down the parlayed come out roll (Do or Don't) after it wins (i.e when $5 becomes $20), and starting over with another minimium line bet. If the shooter rolls a point and the parlay stands, he recommends taking no odds.

On occasion I still enjoy using the "Pensioner's Play" and the "Big Daddy' plays. Anyone else using these?

-LJG

I will be in laughlin all next week and I plan on using the "Pensioner's" and the "Big Daddy' play...I am also thinking about laying odds on the 4 & 10...I am a noob when it comes to Craps so with the low-minimum tables in Laughlin I can't get hurt too bad...

The Atlantic Club, formerly known as Hilton, has done away with the 25/50 cent chips and also done away with their $3 tables... Min is now $5 with 1 at $10.

Also, the place is up for sale again(a bargain at $50 Million) and rumour has it Poker-Stars.NET will be buying it up.

Going on a cruise soon for 8 days. Want to make sure I dont burn through my BR in a day or two lol... So will likely do:
- pensioners play first day or two when not shooting
- cow tippin when I want to play for a shorter period (minus the yelling though lol)
- dodging bullets when shooting (maybe inside working on a comeout)

The thing I seem to get stuck on for pensioners play is this scenario:
- you get all 3 bets up
- shooter knocks off 2 and you win 1

Should i then parlay that to a $10 (if betting $5) DP or do 1 dp/1dc

Or if new shooter throws a 7 so you quit on him. Get 2 on for the next shooter and they knock off 1 so you win 1 and have 2 units left. Again do you put up the 2 units or do 1/1?

Or do you only do the parlay of a 7out when you go into a new shooter with just the 1 unit?

I find myself sometimes parlaying and sometimes doing 1/1.

Thanks