Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

I stayed at HS this past weekend a couple of nights but didn`t play there . I should have looked at the sign on the tables. I guess I was only interested in food and looking at the pretty ladies when I walked through.

acpa, just killed a mosquito---don`t you miss Arkansas?

Was that a mosquito or a sparrow. In Tunica they're about the same size.

yes, I miss Arkansas

Cromwell in Vegas is now offering 100X odds. Time to update this thread. What to YOU think. Is it a gimmick or a benefit for players?

Its a Gimmick, show me a player THAT is not the WIZARD that plays on a 5or10 dollar table that bets
500 dollars worth of odds OR 1,000 dollars worth of odds. the answer is none.

THOSE PLAYERS play at the 100 dollar tables, they want the table to them self. Jaime.

The small number of joints offering 100 X ODDS usually limit that action
to a $ U S D far closer to the TABLE Minimum than the table maximum ....
.
100X Odds gives room to extend the $ U S D value of chips at Risk..
while reducing the amount at risk of loss to the CRAPS #2, #3 and/or #12
on the COME OUT ROLL.......

Major smiley face when the wager of Pass Line PLUS 100X odds is on a BOX NUMBER that repeats...
Provided you are the player who made the CONTRACT WAGER....

Few players ( in my observation ) make CONTRACT WAGERS on the craps table
in recent times ( with a possible exception of the shooter ),
do to concern related to perceived vulnerabilities inherent in CONTRACT WAGERS..

for the most part

Place Bet Wagers with any $ U S D
seem more acceptable to players skittish over CONTRACT WAGERS.

Personal choice in a JAM UP HOT SESSION is alternate from
PLACE BETS alternating with COME BETS and replace with PLACE WAGER.

Seems the main most concern is the attrition is related a high percent of loss to wagers which
can not turned off or taken down..... at critical moments following " incidents "


just my thoughts
w c

Read the whole thread, some interesting blasts from the past. Heavy, whatever happened to dicer, haven’t heard of him in years.

Mostly a gimmick, but of advantage to a sensible player who wants to press his/her action using the very lowest of house edge positions.

Add in put bets to the mix and the $10 Cromwell table should be of interest to any player who like throwing around a few hundred per time on a roll.

Of course most people over bet their bankroll on a 3x4x5 table so Cromwell just adds even more spice to "trimming that house edge". Even on a $10 table with passline and 2 come bets all with double odds you have $90 in action right off the bat. I doubt many people doing that are buying in with $1k which is a sensible amount for that sort of action. More like $200/$300 and wipe out is soon around the corner unless you catch a very nice bit of positive variance off that same bat.

Only ever seen one guy play this to the max. Put bets then 20/50/100 times odds as they hit. He was handed his ass in around 30 mins on a 10k bankroll despite my best efforts to keep him solvent during my roll when I gave him a few repeaters

The Cromwell was my first experience seeing a Put bet. I couldn't figure out why the dealer was allowing a player to setup his Come bets all in advance.

100x odds. It's a gimmick for most, but a benefit for those with the bankroll to support it.

DeadCat wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:29 pm There's also the anxiety issue when bet size gets uncomfortable. Skilled shooting is dependent on the state of the shooter and an anxiety can have physiologic symptoms like increased blood pressure (makes holding fingers still more difficult), sweating (grip, vision) and others, including bad decision making. Unless you are desensitized to the stress it is reasonable to believe that it can compromise your advantage. If it were 5c and 500 pennies it probably wouldn't.
But, if you can afford the risk, you are playing a game where only less than 1% of your total bet is subject to only 1.41% house advantage. $505 in play only pennies expected loss on each bet. It is practically a fair bet and when coupled with player advantage shooting a potential money tree. But it is not for most of us.
-DC

So someone bumped this thread and I wanted to weigh in. First of all, from a "math guy" perspective, a passline bet backed by 100X odds is practically the best bet on the layout in terms of -EV and HE. The only thing better (mathematically) would be a Don't Pass with 100X lay.

As many have said in this thread, you have a bit of a "risk tolerance conundrum tied to peoples relative bankrolls and average bet size. If your bankroll is commensurate with a $5 table minimum, your not likely going to want or be able to back a $5 passline bet with $500 (100X) odds. I know there are different formulas for an appropriate session bankroll, but most people at a $5 table are likely playing with less than $500 total, or at least less than $1000. Even if your session banrkroll was $1000, you could book and loose a total of 2 passline bets if you put 100X odds on each established point (and the second round, you wouldn't have enough to back your $5PL with a full 100X odds. Similarly, if your session bankroll is in the $10k-$15k range, you are unlikely to play at a $5 table because your average bet size would be much more. The same story applies: You'r not adequately funded to consistently take 100X odds even if your passline wager is $25 (That's $2,500 odds on each passline bet)...a series of ~ 4 passline losses basically knocks you off the table.

I am particularly interested in the psychology at play in a 100X odds situation. People tend to think "I can't tolerate that level of risk relative to my bankroll" even though mathematically, they are maximizing the expected value of their play with a table minimum passline plus 100X odds.
So what is actually going on here when people say it is "too stressful"?
Here is my opinion and perspective- Most people who play craps (or any other table game) really enjoy the ride of that table game...its not just about maximizing profit...prolonged table time seems to be important to many craps players. This was touched upon in another thread where I asked "Is it mathematically best to place a single large wager on the lowest HE bet on the layout, or is it better to book many small wagers". For a random game, Irish (and Wizard of Vegas) seem to think that a single large wager on a low HE bet is better than many small wagers. Less wagers=maximized effect of variance more wagers=greater effect of law of large numbers and therefore, house edge.
As a footnote, I heard that Casino Royale ended the 100X odds promotion...Cromwell has it as does Joker's wild.
I *believe* if:
- you have a $505 session bankroll that you are resolved to risk in a game of bank craps
- you are on the Vegas Strip
- you simply want to maximize your chances of winning as much as possible
Then your best bet is to walk into Cromwell, go to a $5 table, put down $5 on the pass line, and then back it with the remaining $500 in odds. Wait for the bet to resolve, then walk out of the Cromwell. You either win big or lose big, but you just did the most mathematically sound thing that can be done at a craps table with your $505 session bankroll.

The problem with this recommendation, is its not very "fun"...even if you happen to win. Your table time should be a couple of minutes, possibly less. There are probably plenty of people on this forum that would be willing to lose $500 playing a $5 table over the course of many, many trials/bets, but would not be willing to lose it in a single passline bet with max odds. As for myself, I am also like to maximize table time. I may be willing to do this once during a stay in vegas if I was already "up" a significant amount from prior sessions on the same trip, or if my trip bankroll were significantly more than $500 (which it never is)

Bankerdude80 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:19 am 100x odds. It's a gimmick for most, but a benefit for those with the bankroll to support it.

Nailed it Bankerdude. I might add you need discipline too as I believe I've seen people who should of had sufficient bankroll flame out and go broke at the Cromwell.

You never know for sure as the guy next to you who just dropped 5K may consider it a drop in the bucket or it may have been all they had for bankroll.

Great observations from everyone.

Mainframe, excellent post. I particularly liked the part about how larger odds bets get between your ears.

HOA, Dicer gave up gambling entirely a few years back after his mother passed away. At the time he was living in Vegas playing poker full time, supplementing his play at the craps table. I wish him the best.

I know this question is about 100X but even if your bankroll and loss tolerance only allows you to take say 25X odds you are still playing a much better game than most players. In Vegas anything over 3,4,5 is hard to find so Cromwell is a good choice. I say benefit it is!

I think someone on this tread alluded to a progressive odds betting strategy (between point numbers that is). So you may start with 10X odds on your first pass+odds wager and then re-invest the winnings to place 20X odds on the next point number established, etc. Personally, I'd do $5 with 10X odds as buy-in wager (just arriving at table or after charting a bit). Then, If I win, I'd wait for the shooter to establish a 6 or 8 as the point, and increase to 20X odds. I'd generally increment up in terms of an additional 10X odds. So 10X on first PL, 20X on second go-round, 30X on third go-round, etc. But I may skip wagering on certain point numbers.

Yes, that's one of the plays I've talked about a few times. Basically running a Fibonacci progression on the free odds.

There are probably plenty of people on this forum that would be willing to lose $500 playing a $5 table over the course of many, many trials/bets, but would not be willing to lose it in a single passline bet with max odds.

Mainframe nailed it. This is the very heart of many of us I am sure. We can rationalize the mathematics and approach the table with our minds but I believe in the end we like the game and enjoy the experience. I short win of lots of money is probably, when we get right down to it, not our highest objective. I think the admonition to get up and then get gone is good but I take it as a reminder not to grind away my bankroll. I still would, as mainframe described more enjoy winning $100 over 45 minutes than winning $200 in 5 minutes and then get gone.

I think that is why we do not see the majority of folks taking 100X odds. I recall once at Paris, this guy walks up and buys in for $10,000. I watched him placing $2,500 bets on the don't pass and then setting his odds with $5,000. He was gone in about 5 minutes with nothing as he put the rest of his bank roll down on the don't while the DI and the other end of the table bull-frogged his number. That was the most breathtaking craps gambling I has seen, and also the stupidest.

I think 100X odds is not a gimmick but very few of us as mainframe also pointed out, wheel in with adequate bankrolls to accommodate such odds.

skasower...aka....is not bold enough to take 50X odds on a $5 table...

Back in the late 1990s and early 2000s Casino Royale on the strip had $1 pass line with 100x odds early in the morning. Ex-wife and I used to stay at Venetian and I'd go over there in the morning ... few players ... go $1-$10 put bets and see what I could run it to. Was a guy I played with a few times who went $5-$500 on every number to start!
Best I ever did was get to where I needed to up my flats to $3 ... those rock hard aircraft carriers were not great for shooting.

GREETINGS GUYS/GALS,

On a $5 dollar table ARE YOU better off by buying in for $505 dollars AND playing your game in units
of $5 dollars OR take that [ 100x odds ] and play all your money on one hand [ 505 dollars ] WHICH is what the casino wants you to do, GIMMICK . The more Money you play THE better off the casino is ...because they have the advantage on every bet that you make.
Jaime.

Anybody know what the break point is for each number where a put bet with odds becomes more efficient than a place bet?

I've seen the list somewhere before and could probably find it again (or calculate it) but if somebody knows it, please share.

I don't recall off the top of my head, but on inside numbers I think it's around 5x odds.