Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Those of you familiar with various Vegas casinos: can you tell me which otherwise worthwhile spots charge the vig on a buy bet only from a winning bet?

Bankerdude80 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:24 pm Just like in life, if the vig is a metaphor for tax, I'd rather make $1Million a year and pay a 50% tax, than make $10,000 a year and pay no tax. For me, when it comes to the vig paid to the house I consider it a cost of doing business.

You beat me to it, BD!!

While we all try to minimize the axes we pay, hopefully legally, as BD says taxes are a cost of doing business, so I don't begrudge them too much. It's the same in craps where we lean towards low vig bets and strategies to minimize the house edge and maximize our profits.

On a randie I'll make one bet, the 5 or 9 at minimum table bet. Which one it is? The one closer to the point. When it hits, I'll immediately move everything (bet and winnings) over to the 6 and 8. Collect on the first hit, up a unit on both 6 and 8 on second hit. Third hit is same bet. Fourth hit, winnings get split between the 5 and 9. Then it will be alternating collect and press on the winning number and slowly moving sideways to the 4 and 10.

ok I bet them with a 6&8 playing probality of hit deal but vig seems to bother people so lets kill it.
Dealers do you take put bets here at the isle of debris yes sir we do ok heres 5 dollars on each the 5 and nine with 50 dollar odds on each that's full odds on a 10 times table. pays 80 instead of 77 you made 3 more dollars they do addup.
I'm I wrong here?

Nope! as always Ops, you da man!

Okay, let me toss out a couple of other thoughts for your comments/opinions:

I frequently say that players have lost more money betting on the six and eight then any other box number on the layout. Agree or disagree? Explain your answer.

I'll continue down that vein and suggest that players have lost more money on THIS bet than any other on the layout. Which bet is it?

Hint. It's not the five or nine place bet.

Craps check?

Hard way bet on the point.

Congrats Scout. Pass line is correct.

PL definitely. I think a lot of players don't realise that you can play the game without a PL bet. It's an automatic reaction for almost everybody to get that $5 or $10 bet down after each 7 out.

irish wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:05 amWhile this is an easy way to grasp the concept of vig, it does not address "churn" or resolution rate. Vig is difficult to address as a topic because players win or lose on a session to session level primarily because of variance and win or lose over many, many sessions (I didn't say "long run") frequently because of the vig.

Irish, based on this statement I would conclude that for those players who hit the tables with great frequency, i.e. daily or weekly, especially retirees with a lot of time on their hands, need to be careful of the churn. They need to watch what bets they make and avoid those with the high HA because for whatever wins they may have, they most likely give it back to the house over time if they are betting those higher vig bets like the 5 & 9?

The only time I do a pass line bet is when I am the shooter.

Hypothetically
IF you wager the four inside Box Numbers ( 5,six,8,nine )
(which represents 50% of the Dice Pair Combinations)
and HAD THOSE FOUR BOX NUMBERS
ONLY ACTIVE on the FIRST ROLL AFTER THE COME OUT for each trial.....

What would you project the outcome :

After the First Trial ?
after SIX Trials ?
After 36 Trials ?
and
After 72 Trials ?
of only actively ON for that ONE ROLL TRIAL

NO MATTER HOW MANY HANDS
SECONDLY
WHAT Difference would you expect to observe
in the $ USD amount
and
the number of Hits
separated the score of 6/8 compared to score 5/9 ?
.......
An "inconvenient" P S O would terminate the trials and kill the exterminate..
So that would be built into
the hazards side of the ledger
and
be an obstacle in need of recovery..
.....
I may noodle with it on the home practice surface
and
trot it out in "live fire" ( with adjustments/updates on future Casino) Adventures.
{not committed to risking it on unknown shooters attempts }

w c

Wild child do this instead
30 on the 5&9
36 on the 6&8 any hit pays 42 drop 2 dollars press inside up 2 units

40 on the five and nine
48 on 6&8 any hit pays 56 press inside up two units again 8 dollars goes into your rack.

50 on the five and nine
60 on 6&8
any hit pays 70 and your finished for that hand plus 168 for a 132lay out

Ive been running this for the passed month math here 22 inside law of flat betting has it at 18 ways to win 6 ways to lose (3 to 1) a lose of one dollar bet 22 win 21
Ok in truth its quite hard to get three hits really it is because of chop( what I have done is take 15 days of rolls then find out how many streaks of hits ive had then take the lowest mean average per session which is two good hands in my case then I'm threw for that session go drink a coke or some thing.
Its a slobber knocker of a fight but in the end I think you will like it.Yes some times your down 396 but it rifles right back.What about lose one win one well you make 36 bucks there lose two win two that's 72 bucks.
You can add any money mageagement you wish or any system you wish I say stick to three lose for a session.Go eat or some thing come back and try later.
In the past we were told to regress our bets immediately (wrong direction guys you have to win more then you lose) think about the simple pass line only a 40 percent chance of winning your first bet.Think of that for a min as a di you would have to be 10 percent better then random.
Ok got that out of the way heres a question about figuring fig.
I have a slice problem which produces threes I'm not going to bet it yet but my casino is a pay vig up front casino sorry cant travel have only two choices one is crapless.
What is the vig on a 39 dollar buy bet for one dollar?????? on a 3 buy bet dealer says its not a bad bet more expensive but a better deal then 25 dollar buy bet.
Yes I know you place it in increments of 4 dollars but were talking buy bets here.

We had a request from one of the board members today for links to threads where we discussed how we handle pressing on the various sister numbers. In this case - it's how you handle the five and nine. Feel free to start at the top of this thread and read it through. If you have any thoughts or questions after feel free to post them. We'll do our best to answer.

I don't consciously "follow" singular numbers. I'll 'chart', but only in a very general sense--has the shooter kept the dice for >7-9 rolls? what numbers are rolling? (trash or places). I'm a real chicken little and don't bet much on randies unless the table's crowded, the AT is 2/3 filled, the usual signs.

I've had two sessions in two weeks and only bet on one single randy in each session. The first guy pounded 6s, the second shooter hammered 9s. I prefer the outside numbers only because I'm greedy and am willing to "risk it" for better than 7 for 6 odds, so my betting is this way (on a $5 table that has 20x Odds):

5 PL w/2x Odds
$30/40 Outside w/ $30 each 6/8... (no Place bet on the point of course)

First hit on 6/8, reduce each to $18. Any single hit on an outside number, parlay: 4/10 go from $10 to $30 (I pay $2), 5/9 go from $10 to $24. No 6/8 in the first two rolls, reduce to $12 each. If no number repeats a 2nd time before 4 numbers are hit, I skim profits to $52/4 Across (collecting ~$56). From that point, I'll parlay whichever number repeats first for 3x and reduce that bet to $10, "up one unit" on all the other outside numbers. (for instance, $10 Place-9, 1st hit, parlay to $24, second hit add $1 parlay to $60, 3rd hit reduce bet to $10 and skim $134 winnings on the 9. Have I regretted skimming? plenty of times. I've missed accruing on the 5th and 6th hit a few times, but not as many as I've watched a $10/$24 regression die on a 7 out.

If after 2 rolls, no 6/8 show up, I'll reduce to a $12 6/8 and go to $18 on their first hit, "same bet", then add $3 to $42 on the 3rd hit.
If I was lucky and 6/8 came within the first 2 rolls, I'm at this point on the 6/8 two hits earlier.

My betting goal is still the same. $50 for $1 on the 6 and 8 as stanchions, and I've always got in mind to hold out for a 4x or 5x parlay on an outside number--but I've gotta get paid ~$150-200 by the $49 6/8 before I'll let a 5/9 or 4/10 run to 4x/5x parlay. I'm chicken and want my munnie... if the 6/8 ain't payin' $49 reglur, I'll take it from a 3x Outside-number parlay whichever number hit 2x first; I don't care if it's a 5/9 or even a 4/10. That is to say, the 6/8 sit as $42 bets when I'm doing well; whatever Outside number gets a hit first after my "~$56" regression, that's the number I'll ride for a long-repeat parlay. All the other Outsides are "up one unit".

There's two exceptions... if another Outside number "ups one unit" 3x, I'll ride that number instead of the first to repeat. Secondly, if the shooter seems to be bangin' HWs, I'll increase the $42 6/8 to $60 bets and take the $70 payoffs and drop $20 on the corresponding HW. Skim a $190 HW 6/8 payoff for $150, and leave $50 on the HW for a bullfrog. If it loses to a soft 6/8, skim $20 from the $70 payoff and try again. $5ea HW 4/10 parlay the whole thing and take down ~200 after the 2nd HW 4/10

I understand the concept that more money is “lost” on the PL bet than any other bet on the layout, but that is only/mainly because its the most frequenty booked bet on the layout. PL is also *normally* the lowest HE bet on the layout besides the fre odds bet. The law of large numbers dictates that over a large number of trials, the amount of money lost on a given bet should approach the mathematical HE. So if you booked 1 mil passline bets and 1 mil 5/9 place bets and no other bets, your relative loss on the PL should be lower then your loss on 5/9 place bets. I am not sure what would happen with buy bets with vig. Most people gravitate/flock towards ONLY or mostly booking 6/8 place bets based on a basic undestanding of probability of the event outcome (possibly ignoring the expected value portion of the math). I happen to stick to mostly P/DP, C/DC, and 6/8 place bets because they are the lowest HE bets on the layout.
My linited flirtation with 5/9 place bets usually boils down to covering the 5 as an accessory to an iron cross/anything but seven one hit and down play.
I may leave 6/8 up for longer than one trial(roll) but my 5 place bet only works when there is an accompanying field roll. Now if I was in a casino where there was a vig-free5/9 buy bet as is the case in gulf coast venues, I may change my approach a bit. what is the story with 5/9 buy bets in SB, Biloxi/gulfport, etc?

My limited flirtation with 5/9 place bets usually boils down to covering the 5 as an accessory to an iron cross/anything but seven one hit and down play.

You were doing fine until you got to that point. While that strategy has been around for years and sold as a system to more people than I can imagine - at the end of the day you are risking four bets to win one. If I were playing it in a $10 game the minimum I would consider is $51 action on the 5, 6, 8 and $10 on the Field. The most you could win is $30 if they triple the Field on the 12 and it rolls. More likely you'll win $21 minus $10 or $11. At $11 a win you have to win five times to offset one loss of $61 to the seven.

In Mississippi, where the vig is collected after the win and the five and nine are automatically bought beginning (in most places) at $20 the house edge drops below 2%. I believe the exact number is 1.96%. Buy bets where the vig is collected up front on the five and nine are actually worse than place bets. The housed edge creeps up to almost 4.8% depending on the breakage, etc.

You are on the right track with PL or DP plus Placing the 6 and 8. If you want to play the most efficient strategies mathematically either of those are a great place to begin. Add continuous Come or Don't Come bets to the mix and you have a great play as far as the math wanks are concerned. However, due to the inherent volatility of the play you cannot expect to walk up to a $10 game with a $300 buy in and win. You're much more likely to get three or four numbers covered, only to see the seven show up without a repeater. When the seven takes a vacation, though, you can get fat quickly.

My feeling? I want the lowest vig bets on the table that are not contract bets (the six and eight place bets - and probably a DP bet to go with them) with a sensible pay for it first press approach - with additional numbers placed based on them earning the right to be placed. They earn the right to be placed by how many times they show up on a particular shooter's hand. If they throw it often enough - I will bet it.

heavy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:49 am My feeling? I want the lowest vig bets on the table that are not contract bets (the six and eight place bets - and probably a DP bet to go with them) with a sensible pay for it first press approach - with additional numbers placed based on them earning the right to be placed. They earn the right to be placed by how many times they show up on a particular shooter's hand. If they throw it often enough - I will bet it.

Heavy- thanks for all the feedback/advice. Yes I particularly agree with your strategy of start with low HE bets and if the shooter is having a good hand and shows a trend for throwing "outside" numbers, I will book other place bets with the profits from 6/8 hits. So it would be the whole "moving up and out" on multiple hits on inside numbers.

Bingo.