Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

That sounds like a great time. Think of all the spring-break randies who will be there.

Thanks again for the Golden Ticket offering. I'll be in LV during MLK weekend, but don't get in until late Saturday night so I didn't sign up for the January class. I was thinking of using LV March as my second Golden Ticket offering, with Biloxi being my first. Some Darkside lessons would be good for me.

Golden Ticket for me too. Biloxi as my first. Still deciding on the other two. Can't do LV in January though as we'll be in the middle of our move.

Spring-break randies and Saturday nighters after the shows - good dark side fun

heavy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:07 pm I think you guys are correct. We just need to do a dedicated dark side weekend in Vegas. I actually have a class session already prepared on shooting from the Don'ts. I can provide the handouts, the dice sets to use based on the point established, how to handle the come out game, etc. We'll have toss training as usual, focusing on tossing short hands and sevening out early. Then throw in a day of dark side play for fun and profit. Who would be interested if we did something like that in Vegas in March?

Heavy,

I was looking up your thoughts on Fibonacci when I stumbled across this old thread.

I would be interested in doing something like this for next year (I have another kid on the way in late July, so it'll be awhile).

Seems like a lot of trip reports lately suggest that we need to get a better handle on transitioning to the Don'ts. Where's the Dark Side Love? Thoughts?

There's not a lot of darkside love on the strip, didn't see one chip on the DP/DC last weekend, other than me; and it was choppy all weekend.

Lately, I've been starting on the don'ts and transitioning to the right side when inside numbers start appearing. That seems a more viable play especially when I keep reading that the casino take on tables is increasing across the board across the entire town. More right side loses can lead to more darkside wins. However even the darkside has been fleeting of late; though I did eke out a small win with my right side toss at one table and a small win with the darkside toss at another establishment. Otherwise very choppy as not once was there a long streak of seven-outs, nor any long hands tossed.

Guess you need to add a chapter on grinding as well; though I agree its time for another Dark Siders Ball ........

D.N8r

I have a quick question Lord Nater. If you toss while betting the DP this suggests an ability to toss the devil with some consistency. Is this not harder for a DI person than playing on the right side? As I practice for example, I am slowly able to get more tosses per hand when I gots the rhythm. So, with that observation, clearly more box numbers show (although so do 2s, 3s, 11s, and sometimes 12s) in between the devil. So, when you toss on the dark side, are you completely focused on tossing 7s? How does it work for a DI such as yourself good Sir?

Thanks for the insights,

skasower...aka...

What are your thoughts :

a)Place across at your personal Comfort Level
and
...a Level LARGER THAN TABLE MINIMUM
....( $64 or $96 or $ WHATEVER )

b) Option W O T C O or OFF during the Come Out Roll

c) Make serial Don't Come bets for a $ value equal to the craps table minimum

d) Remove the BOX NUMBER wagers
...as the Don't Come bet lands on that Box Number

e) Once Three Do Side bets are replaced by Don't bets

f) Take Down (Remove ) the remaining Do Side bets...

g) Continue Rolling ( Tossing )

h) Should a Don't Come bet be knocked down
....REPLACE The Don't with a Place Bet.

i) Also Place Bet any uncovered number
... that subsequently SHOWS ( is Hit ) TWICE

j) Choose to maintain (SAME BET) repeating numbers ,increase or Pull Down
......to comply with your personal Comfort Level

Would this hold up , with tinkering , when experiencing " THE CHOP " ?

.....Has this convoluted game plan been presented ?

......T H O U G H T S ?
w c

skasower wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 7:19 pm I have a quick question Lord Nater. If you toss while betting the DP this suggests an ability to toss the devil with some consistency. Is this not harder for a DI person than playing on the right side? As I practice for example, I am slowly able to get more tosses per hand when I gots the rhythm. So, with that observation, clearly more box numbers show (although so do 2s, 3s, 11s, and sometimes 12s) in between the devil. So, when you toss on the dark side, are you completely focused on tossing 7s? How does it work for a DI such as yourself good Sir?

Thanks for the insights,

skasower...aka...

skasower,
Good questions, let me break them down.....
First consistency is relative, unfortunately, some days are just stinky and others are spot on.

Normally if I'm in a preferred position on a preferred table, I will shot right side. I almost always shot right side during Heavy's classes, as shooting from the don'ts can be disruptive, especially if the stick calls me out as shooting on the DP.

If I'm shooting from the don't, I'm generally playing GWTG with a $10 or more World Bet, looking to snipe aces or midnights on the come-out as its nice to be ahead before you've set a point. I think its easier for a DI to shoot from the dark side - and there's less pressure IMHO. If you've read the MP's "Living on the Darkside" series, esp his "Journey of Opportunity" series, one of the points he makes is that darkside shooting is the easier - as you're trying to toss the number that shows the most, so a little skill can go a long ways. My preferred approach when shooting dark is to also place the 6 & 8, as the GWTG toss tends to yield a lot of outside numbers, while the all-sevens mutant set I use tends to yield a lot of soft 6s & 8s, when its not turning 7s, so I can get both sides paying, which is important as when you seven out the dice pass. Of course there's always the unexpected, somewhere in the MGM National Harbor thread I filed a trip report where I hit nine points shooting from the don't pass; I made money as I was placing the points, but mention that as a reminder that you never know for sure what's going to happen until it happens. So yeah, I'm completely focused on the 7-out, but at the same time, try to be observant of my situation, and how the dice are performing.

Thanks for asking, hope this helps, D.N8r

wild child wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 8:05 pm

Would this hold up , with tinkering , when experiencing " THE CHOP " ?


......T H O U G H T S ?
w c

WC,
I prefer not to put more money and more targets on a CHOP table, so I would most likely dial down - not dial up. My preference is to bet small and see if the chop sorts out and I see a trend. I know there's a lot of definitions for degrees of CHOP, sometimes the best approach is to find a different table, D.N8r

For those events of THE SHOOTER tossing every Box Number O N C E ,
( and possibly a number of other SHORT HAND SCENARIOS )

the TRANSITION MOVE may show positive returns....
.
Should "The Snake " turn around showing several REPEATING BOX NUMBERS
a player may be PRESENT and ACCOUNTED

very early
in the rare run of repeating BOX NUMBERS..........
......go through one only one full TRANSITION CYCLE
of
DARK SIDE PLAY to "Bright Side Bets" reverse to DARK SIDE and Discontinue on that shooter on next reversal..
( in actual performance the Transition Play could work from Bright Side to DARK Side back to Bright Side ( aka: Do Side )
.
In a long,long , elongated CHOP Cycle, you could approach subsequent shooters similarly.....
A more safe way certainly is pocket any Winnings and move on to other opportunities...


Classify it as Confirmation Bias
and
accept that ,on a good day , at best it is a GAMBLE ...............

w c

I am a "situational" dark side player. I've heard many times not to switch right betting and dark side play in a single session. People say "pick a side, and stick with it..at least for the duration of a table session". It wasn't a particularly choppy table I was playing at this past Saturday...people were generally making a single point and rolling 7-12 times, but there were people who didn't make a single point. Three times in a 1.5 hour period, I did a DP laying odds and happened to win the resolved DP bet twice. The one DP I had that didn't win was a wash because it was a DP4 with Lay odds and I hedged it with a $5 hard 4 (the amount I had at stake on the DP+lay equaled $35). But that entire 1.5 hour period, the rest of the time I was playing pass and some 6/8 place bets.
I guess the point of my anecdote is, you can play both sides in one session and happen to have lucky guesses:)

I guess I'm a bit of a contrarian, or maybe it's that someone saying "pick a side and stay with it" is just advice I don't value or should I say not subscribe to. I like the DP with a 6 & 8 place bet. We talked thru that strategy in depth in Heavy's last Vegas class. You can definitely play both sides and net out ahead. However if its really choppy you're going to be up and down - that's the likely reality, so if you claw your way back to being up, its good to have an exit strategy - for me then bet until a bet gets knocked off or you have a net negative on the last shooter - then get outta there and fight another day, D.N8r

I have, in fact, further defined that Don't Bet combo with the six and eight place bets - right down to including an initial 60% regression on the first six and eight hit to giving you specifics as to when to add the outside numbers. This is going to be a significant part of the betting strategy class Saturday afternoon. Saturday morning will focus exclusively on toss techniques and improvements - since we have no "newbies" in the class except for my daughter, who was dealing for me when she was around nine. I think she'll be okay.

Looking forward to the betting strategy discussions with this group next weekend!

Back in the day (1990's) when all the games in Iowa were 2x odds I would sometimes make a DP, place the six and eight, and make a dc bet. If the DC went outside I'd leave it naked. If it went to the six and eight I'd lay $12 odds and collect the $14.

One evening a NA pit critter walked by just as my DC bet was going to either the six or eight. She exclaimed in a loud voice. OMG WE'RE PAYING HIM TO TAKE ODDS!.

I'll never forget that one. lol.

I've been starting out on tables playing the DC on unknown shooters. It works pretty well, choppy as expected. I would make 2 consecutive naked DC bets once the point was established. I'd then wait it out. I did not chase. Most of the time I collected on both bets, other times I would break even. What was frustrating would be the shooter knocking me off the bets. When they finally knocked my last bet off, guess what showed on the next roll? It was weird. It happened so often that I thought about hopping the sevens. I transitioned a few times when the shooter caught a hand. Even though I was late to the party, I was able to profit from those hands a few times. I would often watch for DI's or Rhythm Rollers, the occasional chicken feeder gets lucky sometimes too.

I play this way not so much to grind a profit, but to keep me entertained as the dice make their way around the table back to me.

What's your transition process BD? Something like passline after a point made? Then a 7 can be a great triple whammy with two DCs and pass bet getting paid or do you wait and maybe place dominant numbers that have rolled more than expected?

LS, I'll watch for the trending numbers hitting more frequently than probability expects them. If the shooter has made a point, I'll bet the six or eight and play both sides. If he hasn't made his point, I leave the DC bets up and wait for a decision on those bets before transitioning. Once he knocks all my DC bets off, I wait one roll then place bet the six or eight. At this point I'm down $20 with my total exposure at $32 on a $10 table. If shooter catches a hand, I can recover a bit. If not, I eat the loss and make no additional bets. So far it has worked in my favor, but variance is known to be a bitch on occasion.