Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

GOOD MORNING. IS 8:AM HERE IN PUERTO RICO.

today i have a question for all members on this board.
can you please answer the following-
this is how i fill i was cheated at the casino.

JAIME. F.S.P.R. .

GREETING MP.

are you trying to tell me that casinos never cheat the players.
i would love to see some insiders today, spill the beans on the subect.

i have seen it done, clue number one- you see wires leading to the table, where the box person sits.
at the end of one wire- their was a small red light.
on the other wire thier was a green light.

you know what happened in that casino after awhile, the players stop going to that casino.
after awhile, when they didn't have any players- a miracle happened the wires dissapear.
and then the players came back.
mp. i know that 90% of all players lose their money in the casino, but give me a break.

JAIME. F.S.P.R. .

So you think this casino is what we refer to as a "juice joint" with an electro magnet under the table and gaffed dice in play. Interesting, and entirely possible in the Caribbean, but I suspect what you saw was a skimmer where the box swipes players cards. Then again, who knows?

I thought for a minute there we were going to go down the biased dice trail - which in general I don't buy if you're referring to any major casino company.

I have no doubt that there are gaffed card shoes in play in casinos around the country, but that's a different animal altogether. Likewise, I do not trust "pre-shuffled" shoes, which some casinos use. About the worst I've experienced at craps, though, was a situation where a dealer was deliberately underpaying me. I don't think the casino itself was cheating me. I think I just had an asshole dealer who didn't like me and deliberately tried to beat me five bucks at a time.

GREETINGS HEAVY.

HEAVY- i remember when i was young and i used to go see a lady friend.
the donation for 30 minutes was $25 dollars, today that would be $500 dollars.

a player dosen'T wan't to buy in for $500 dollars-and then see no action.

JAIME. F.S.P.R.

I have seen BLATANT cheating in Craps in one Casino and that was at Bethlehem Sands in Pennsylvania earlier this summer. I discussed this on another forum when it happened and will repost the details here.

A little background....

Bethlehem Sands is the closest Casino with Craps relatively close to where my parents' live in Brooklyn, NY so I try to visit there at least once every time I go up to NY. I was very excited when it first opened up in 2011 and had a few very profitable sessions there. In my opinion, the tables are relatively DI friendly and I usually run into a good DI when I go there.

My first day playing there in the summer of 2011; I had a marathon session playing for about 9 hours. I was the best shooter on the table...I kept on averaging about $400 profit on each hand but would lose most of it back betting on randies by the time I got the Dice back. I bought in for $600 and left with $1,900 betting very conservatively. I recall this day fondly because a lady made $4,000 profit on my rolls simply betting $25 on the Horn and power pressing; My 5/6 6/5 Dice Set was on FIRE!

Bethlehem Sands 5/25/2012

CASINO MISPLACING BETS INTENTIONALLY?

On my first comeout roll; I bet $5 Horn High Aces....threw a 2, got paid $56...I threw in an additional $5 and stated...."Press my Horn High Aces to $10", the next roll was a 3, the box paid me $12...they said "you never pressed your bet"...I became very upset because I clearly pressed my bet. They did not book the bet.

On my next attempt...I threw in $11 and said "Hop 7's for $2 each with a $5 Horn high Aces. The box called out "$5 Horn High Aces" with the stick man banking my $6; I stopped the game before throwing and said "Why are you banking my $6?" I clearly stated "Hop the 7's for $2 each and you looked right at me and said...okay"... they booked the bet.

Later that night during a roll, I threw in $11 and said "Hop the 5 & 9 with a $5 Horn High Aces"...the box booked the 5 & 9 for $1 each with a $5 Horn High Aces...Again the stick tried to bank $2 before the next throw, I got into a very HEATED argument with the Pit Boss about continued misplaced bets by the dealers especially the stick..I screamed "I just threw you $11, why do you keep banking chips???" The PIT BOSS argued with me that I was not throwing in the appropriate amount of $$$. I screamed back "it's your job to book bets and give back change", "you do the math..book my bets and give me back my change" They booked the bet.

There were two "hot shooters" that night; one (Shooter A) threw the dice randomly and was just a lucky SOB....on the first table when I was there....he did not make a single point but hit lots of hardways...A player (Non-shooter) had $25 each on all hardways...the hard 8 was hit; he pressed his Hard 4, 6, 10 to $50 and $75 on the Hard 8, the box booked the bet correctly and verbally said "$50 on all hardways, $75 on the hard 8". Shooter A hit every single hardway (4,6,10)...when he hit the Hard 8, there was only $50 on the Hard 8 for the NON-Shooter; this was a LIE; it was clearly $75 that the guy pressed it up to....a few minutes earlier (the entire table confirmed it)...argument was started (justifiably)....game was paused...this was intentional by the box..the Pit Boss said "We'll pay you for a $50 Hard 8, then check surveillance for the remaining $25. Arguments on craps table almost always leads to a 7 on the very next roll. I called "off" on my bets...hopped the 7's right away for $3 each....next roll was a SEVEN! I was so mad about the box messing up the game...I left the table. An hour later; Shooter A goes on a 30 minute roll but there is no room for me to get back in. BIG freaking mistake; I had identified a lucky shooter but left the table because the box was cheating. I caused myself money by leaving the table!

Now on a different table, shooter B who is a "dice setter"....Mini V (2's) setter is hitting hardways like CRAZY...I made $300 on a total of an original $10 placed on hardways in minutes....he hit the Hard 6 three times in a few rolls; I pressed from $5 to $10 to $15...making more than $200 in a few rolls. When I pressed the Hard 6 to $15; somehow there was only $10 placed on it...the next time the Hard 6 was hit during the flow of the game...argument was started....this was intentional by the box...game was paused...I called "off" on my bets...hopped the 7's for $5 each, next roll: SEVEN!

Shooter A comes over to my table...I tell the player next to me...that guy is a very lucky shooter...."get ready to make money". I bet all the hardways $5 each..bet $18 on the 6 and 8...then hopped the 5's and 9's for $1 each and bet a $2 C&E. Shooter A hit SIX 9's in a ROW (I was getting back $10 per roll)after the 6th 9 in a row; I threw in $7 and clearly stated "Make my $2 C&E a $5 Horn and press my Hop 5's and 9's to $2 each. The next roll was a 9 (SEVEN 9's in a row), the box paid me $7 instead of $22, they never booked my additional hop bets...I honestly tried not to make a scene but I had just thrown in the money for the bet the roll before and this was getting ridiculous...now there were doing the BS yet again. I said very loudly "everybody, I would call off your bets if I were you, the BS is starting again", I took down my $18 (6&8) and hopped the 7's for $5 each...next roll (SEVEN)! UNBELIEVABLE! 3 good rolls by 2 players all ended the same way within a 45 minute period ..with the casino "misplacing" bets. I left the Casino down $100 but after being down $500 an hour earlier; I felt like a winner!

I highly advise you....once an argument starts on a craps table...."call off your bets"...this was the most horrible intentional display I have ever seen in my 12 years of playing craps at a casino. Everybody makes mistakes but 8 mistakes on 3 different craps tables in 2 hours reeks to me of a systematic move by a Casino to cheat players or intentionally destroy the "flow of a game"..

Bethlehem Sands 5/26/2012

I told my Craps buddy (We've been playing Craps together for over 12 years; we both started together) about the incidents that occurred on 5/25/2012; he wanted to go and play with me the next day. Bethlehem Sands is only about 40 minutes away from his place so I decided to tag along.

I was playing on the same table with my Craps Buddy (Parlay); here was the exchange.

Parlay: what should you do when you are being cheated by the casino? I was at the Sands in Pennsylvania and I was playing craps. I made a horn bet. The pit boss says no bet and it wasn't set up. When a place number hit, I ask for my money back and he said he booked my bet. Of course I started arguing but caught myself. I let it go & continued to gamble. Then i had $5 on all the hardways. They switched dealers and i called off on my place numbers. The hard10's hit & i got paid. Then it hit again and my hardways was turned off. I asked them who turned it off. They said I did when my place numbers were turned off

CrapsForever:I was standing right across from "Parlay" when this happened and will vouch for everything he wrote. The cheating in Bethlehem Sands is really bad. Parlay threw in $10 for a Horn Bet and the Pit Boss yelled "Late Bet, No Bet"... a "10" hit and the Pitboss said he "booked the bet" and took down the horn bet. It was absolutely disgusting!

The Hardway bet/non bet was hysterical! The Dealer had just paid him (Parlay) on a hardway bet the roll before...now they claim his hardway bet was "off" when it hit again . They tried the same thing with me a few rolls later. I told the dealer "Place Bets off" "Hardways always work". Right before I threw the dice, I saw an "off" button on the hardways...I stopped my roll and asked "why were the hardways off?" the pit boss said "he was playing with the off button"!

Conclusion

I wrote about my experience with (Misplaced Bets, Cheating) at Bethlehem Sands on Friday May 25, 2012. On Saturday May 26, 2012 a few other people had similar experiences involving blatant "cheating" by the same Casino. I ensured all of my bets were booked and placed accurately on the felt before every dice roll. I know a couple of dealers were upset that I was being so deliberate repeating my bets verbally multiple times but I wanted to make sure bets were placed accurately. Some dealers have a lot on their plate and tend to "forget" a bet especially when it hits if it's not placed appropriately on the felt. ALWAYS ensure your bet is booked accurately and placed in its right area and make sure you get a verbal acknolowdgement BEFORE the next roll.

Though I generally love the Craps tables at Bethlehem Sands; I can NOT play at a Casino where cheating takes place so I have refused to play there anymore since the cheating incidents by Casino Personnel on 5/25/2012 and 5/26/2012. It really SUCKS because the tables are very DI friendly but if you have to worry about every single bet you make being booked appropriately and bets being changed when you are not looking; then you can't concentrate on the task at hand so it's simply not worth it.

CrapsForever

Heavy,
It's been awhile since I paid much attention to an auto-shuffler, but what
I remenber is that it appeared to be doing a thorough job. Maybe there's
a difference between models. How do you see it working ?
Also, if the casino can simply reshuffle at any time, isn't that all the advantage
they need ?

The Shufflemaster machines operate off an algorithm that pretty much assures a continuous random shuffle. In their early days a group of AP's figured out what the algorithm was and they were able to replicate the shuffle with computers and relay info to players at the table and beat the shufflers. That is considered cheating, by the way, and is just one more reason why the casino doesn't want you to have electronic devices at the table. Anyway, Shufflemaster discovered their flaw and fixed it.

More recently Gemaco had issues with the pre-shuffled cards they sold to casnios and ultimately were sued by the Golden Nugget for providing cards pre-shuffled in such a manner as to guarantee player wins. Actually, I think they sent out unshuffled cards in pre-shuffled card boxes. Supposedly Gemaco pre-shuffled cards in a secure room in their facility - then shipped the cards to the casinos. The casinos just slapped the cards in the shoes and started dealing. Supposed to be a big time and labor saver for the casino. The Golden Nugget asserted that Gemaco's failure to provide pre-shuffled cards resulted in a group of Chinese players beating the casino for something like $1.5 million in one night in AC.

My position is that if the cards can be unshuffled OR pre-shuffled to guarantee a win they can be pre-shuffled to guarantee a loss - assuming correct basic strategy. I recall a session I played at an Indian joint many ears ago. I'd been playing something similar to the Easy Opp count combined with a Paroli progression and was winning big. After a couple of hours of this they had a "shift change" and a new dealer came out bearing a pre-shuffled shoe. He slapped in in the rack and beat me five hands in a row. I told him he was too good for me, colored up and left. I have no doubt that he was the designated cooler.