Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

This review probably should have been completed a year or two ago when The Method was hot news. However, I know people are still considering purchasing The Method so I thought I'd give it a run down on it's performance and my results with it.

Breakdown (this information can be found on a handout provided by any owner of The Method)

"The craps method we offer is easy to implement, but it requires the study of pattern recognition combined with patience, discipline, and exact betting strategies in order to succeed. These are the missing ingredients in every failing progressive wagering system."

Three years ago that statement seemed reasonable. However, after consistently playing craps (at least one Vegas trip a month), for most people: Easy & Patience, Discipline, Exact betting DO NOT MIX well. I personally struggled with this! I have since gotten much better at money management, discipline, patience, and win goals but in the beginning of my craps career I was terrible.

What is The Method?
The study of pattern recognition combined with patience & discipline. The Method will teach you what patterns to recognize and how to bet those patterns. In theory, it is very simple. In PRACTICE, it is quite tedious and strenuous at times (I hope other Method players will attest to this).

Who Should Buy The Method?
-Players who live near casinos (30 miles or less)
-Players who have a bankroll already in place (at least 3,500)
-Players who ARE NOT action junkies
-Players who are well versed in the game of craps

My Results
I wish I never bought The Method. My money could have been spent taking Heavy's course, Beau's course, and some shooting tune-ups. With all of that, I would still have money left over for a small start up bankroll.

As of today I would be a prime candidate to buy The Method except I don't live near a casino. I have had much better success practicing my DI skills and taking courses with Heavy and Beau regarding trends, betting strategies, and shooting tips.

If you have any more questions, please ask and I will answer the questions with brutal honesty.

Thanks for the review.
I am guessing you didn't recoup your investment with the method---am I right?

If you did live near a casino, would the method be of more value?

I wanted to make a few observations regarding the method. I don't use the Method, but have seen plenty of people play it.

From what I surmised, it's pretty much pattern recognition(thank you to BuytheFour for confirming).
You may spend a good portion of the time being off as opposed to working.
I'm not sure if some of the patterns are very complex, which would make being aware of them more difficult.
I've been at tables with multiple "method" players and technically they should all be betting the same, but I've seen them make different bets/calls on the same roll. So, what does that mean? Is there variation in how you can play the "Method"? Did some players not observe the same pattern, for example, you got distracted, you missed the hard ten someone tossed, what do you do now or you should've been off 2 rolls, but you missed one? Do you still count the rolls when your off? What if a negative indicator occurs while your off, do you stay off additionally?

I'd say, the "method" probably works best for those players that don't intend to toss and are not easily distracted by activity going on in the game.

The primary issue I have with "method" players is often the disruption in the flow of the game. By that I refer to the constant switching of whether your working or not working. Sometimes they call "off" right as the dice are going out and technically the dealer has to dig out one of those off buttons to place on your action. If you have multiple "method" players, sometimes they don't have that many off buttons handy.

PVW

obie1 wrote:....which, I was told by someone who took both, sets you back another $2495.00 for a total of $5,490.00 !!! (...and now, all of a sudden... the other guy at $1500 seems like a bargain...).


Obie1

Depends if you want an expensive....or a cheap oceanfront lot .....in Arizona.

The primary issue I have with "method" players is often the disruption in the flow of the game. By that I refer to the constant switching of whether your working or not working. Sometimes they call "off" right as the dice are going out and technically the dealer has to dig out one of those off buttons to place on your action. If you have multiple "method" players, sometimes they don't have that many off buttons handy.

PVW and I agree on this 100%. The other problem, when you have method players who are friends playing at the same table, is all the talking and comparing notes if they're standing next to one another, and the "high signs" and signals being flashed across the table when they're at opposite ends. Crazy stuff. But hey, we have so many method players in our "camp" these days . . . how can I not like 'em?

There are Two Methods: The Method & Titanium

Of course, like most systems, it is recommended that you master The Method before purchasing Titanium. Titanium is ADVANCED pattern recognition and gives players the option to incorporate hop bets and "stronger" plays based on patterns.

I'm going to do my best to answer questions in order.

Being near a casino: If I lived near a casino, I would shoot and play either a regression style or martingale on the Passline or Dont. I would set my win goal at 3-5 units then get the heck out of dodge. The Method does give pretty strong indicators on when to turn bets off which I incorporate when I play with others and when I shoot.

PVW: Did not ask a question but did point out a major flaw of Method players. They just don't know what they are doing! There is a TON of information to digest and remember. What tends to happen is players forget certain indicators and/or teach themselves incorrect plays (similar to building bad habits when practicing DI at home). Also, if there are DIs at the table, you should not be playing The Method (it's one of the rules and Nelli/Beau will tell you that in person). Also, some Method players don't incorporate all of the betting strategies; therefore you see varying plays being made.

1. Do you think that someone can figure out the practices of "the method' on their own?

Depends. Heavy has an awesome class he teaches that is based off of trends he has observed while playing. So yes it is possible, but unlikely unless you are in tune to the game (tracking, playing frequently, observing the intricacies of the game)

2. Do you know of any DI shooters who have gone to "the method"?

I know of many shooters who have The Method. I DO NOT know any shooters who have given up shooting altogether in favor of The Method.

3. Why don't you just resell your books on ebay then, and use that money to buy coaching with Heavy?

I signed a Non-Disclosure agreement. However, I don't know how much leverage that has in my state and in general when purchasing items that are for sale. I think NDA's only protect ideas that have not been fully implemented or are in the process of being created. For example, I paid for The Method so technically it is mine to use as I see fit, but not sure how that all works.

Yea I figured as much, regarding Non Diclosure. I own the damn thing and I can re sell it if I want. Just can't make copies of it. Sweet.

I think selling the strategy to someone else would cause you non-disclosure issues. Not on the strength of the non-disclosure itself, but under violation of copyright laws. But to be clear - you can copyright words but you cannot copyright ideas that any other thinking man could have come up with on his own. At least that's my layman's interpretation of the law. With all that said, I think the non-disclosure agreement COULD be used a leverage against you in a suit over copyright violation. Just opinions, of course. A lawyer I am not.

It sounds like I am a good candidate for The Method:
1) I live close to casinos
2) I have a bankroll in place
3) I am not an action junky
4) I am somewhat well-versed in craps

The only problem is that I have always said that craps is a simple game that we are constantly trying to complicate.

Sounds to me that the METHOD is complicated. But winning sessions always trump complication.

I also purchased the Method, I stopped shooting for over a year trying to focus on this. You find out after you have the manual, it does not have every thing in it. After you have read and practiced it , you then have phone sessions with Nelli, here you get some new info and rules of playing. Then included with the purchase is a live class in Vegas or AC, here you get more info that is not in the manual. If you struggle or want to get better go to a second class it is only 799, hell that is cheap compared to the 3000 already paid, (Nelli had a price increase for this fine process, I think 3500 or 4000.) Of course when you go to the class there are students who have the Titanium, you get to hear that is what you really need but as BTF has mentioned you should master the original. I have a friend who purchased the Titanium and the Roulette at the class. You get a discount if you purchase the Titanium or roulette at the class, they normally are same price as original. My friend has over 8000 invested in all this and is having the same results as BTF and me.

I have got to watch or practice with six different Method players, everyone of us played different, though there are some plays we all would do every time. I did see one guy play at Paris he was using the Method but modified to his liking and he was down a couple units until he shot, on his shot he bet across and had 20+ roll and made 3 points, then he colored up with a profit.

The big warning I wish I would have realized is that Nelli will not play this in casino with a Method student. I only know of one person going to the casino with Nelli and that was Super Rick, if I remember right SR claimed Nelli won one session and lost the next.

Now I will say Nelli will talk to you on the phone and try to help, he will meet you at a resturant and spend alot of time with you discussing the Method.

Whirl aka World numbers in sequence on the COME OUT
( or after a prolonged string of box numbers only)

A specific BOX NUMBER repeating back to back three to five times.....

ALL HARD WAYS or zero hard way numbers


Putting a list of "indicators" should be easy as eating lettuce...

Knowing what to do about them once you have it scoped out ??


W c

Listen: I never bought the method and I think any method that is out there that is looking for "patterns" is no better than "see a crap bet a crap" as far as a system. Yeah, the system works sometimes. Even betting randomly is a working betting system, sometimes.

I think the whole idea of paying thousands of dollars for a betting system is a little bit sad. Even if you are lucky enough to "recoup" your money, to me it's less attractive than betting both red and black on the roulette table. Most of the time I recoup the losses from red with the wins from black (or vice versa). But proving that such a system "works" sometimes to not lose is something that I already know. The same is true for these betting systems.

What you have to understand is just because someone uses this betting system to win enough to pay for the system does not mean that MORE people fail to do this than people that succeed.

Furthermore, a single $5,000 pass line bet at any table taking that high action (there are PLENTY in town here) is very likely a MUCH better betting system than "the method" to recoup your costs. I'm just saying! I could guarantee you that with enough customers, more than 49.2% of the customers who bought the method betting system could recoup their costs by betting $5,000 on the pass line. I would be surprised if the percentage is as high for those who bet a combined $5,000 into bets for "The Method."

There is no accountability for people who lose using the method and don't report back to the guy who came up with the strategy. There is therefore no guarantee that it works. All the NDA and stuff I have heard about this smacks of charlatanism of the worst kind. You can pretend it is guard against valuable intellectual property, but to me it is a total joke.

I do have a betting method that minimizes the losses for the long term. Minimum bet on the don't pass and no other bets.

I don't charge for my system, and it works! There is no other way to have action on the table for a lower cost for a random shooter. Not even the method beats my system!

Little Joe wrote:

You are right. Many who pay the big bucks for systems will mention wins but don't mention how many times these opportunities don't result in wins.
//

That can be said also for dice control schools. As far as mentioning losses.

That can be said also for dice control schools. As far as mentioning losses.

LOL. Not at my house. I post those reports "warts and all." But you are correct in that it's human nature to want to "accentuate the positive" and "eliminate the negative." I just don't see the point in trying to BS anyone when, most of the time, there's somebody looking over my shoulder counting my chips anyway.

I am now selling the Dylan-Nacchi for $5000 and will play with any buyer or drink coffee or take care of ...........

Little Joe wrote:

Tricky wrote:

Little Joe wrote:

You are right. Many who pay the big bucks for systems will mention wins but don't mention how many times these opportunities don't result in wins.
//

That can be said also for dice control schools. As far as mentioning losses.

You are correct. In addition it can be said also for sports betting, poker, blackjack, roulette, stock market, etc...
Some folks do and some folks don't. Meanwhile casino profit continues to grow. Hmmm.... is there a pattern here?



/

It can also be said for all the self-esteem gurus "ignore the negative, focus on the positive. The negative will only drag you down" Now people have no clue on how to score themselves since the only way they are told to get happiness is to avoid all negative.

Rofl funny comments Dylanfreake and Little Joe.

Dylan,

From the reports I'm hearing if anyone has a system worth selling it would be you. Turning a $100 bankroll into 5 figures!! I'd love to simply see you in action. That feat is more impressive than any I have heard yet.

Ole DF is a modest fellow. It has taken him over ten years to achieve this. I believe that MP figured out his yearly return once and it was about 18%. Only in the last year or so has DF accelerated his playing. Still his basic one loss per shooter but he has started laying odds which he never did before. Flat bets with a negative progression that sometimes gave him too much adrenalin. His winning system is also akin to watching paint dry.
Heavy and I discussed this via email today and he mentioned that winning systems were pretty much alike in that they are
boring as hell. I totally agree.

I have not to this date spoken to Dylanfreake AKA : D F other than reading and on occasion
responding to his posts on this board....I may have on several occasions actually observed him.
However the opportunity to engage in conversation was not right as I am somewhat on the cautious
side when it comes to striking up conversation in earshot of people I rather not have listen in on said conversation(s)......................D F if the fellow I observed was indeed you,I have the topmost respect
for your reserve and the way you carry yourself in the casino situation..........

If Dylayanfreak decide to teach for ANY PRICE what he does ,the student would have to deep inside
their psyche to actually carry it off..........Steve Jobs traveled to far off places and went deep inside himself to build his reserve........D F must have carried a strong character and perhaps refined his resolve to become an overall WINNER at successfully WAGERING at CRAPS..............

The REWARD has got to be beyond only just the $$$$$ , as the rewards follow having a plan.working the plan and the satisfaction of not yielding to temptations or distractions.

Were D F to set up in a remote place and charge an extravagant $$$$$ price , it would
well be worth THE PRICE even if paid over time in installments.............

D F I salute you...........

AND if the fellow I OBSERVED is other than YOU , I SALUTE BOTH OF YOU

Just me saying

W C