Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Back in the ProBoards era, in addition to the Axis Power Craps forum I ran a dedicated Dark Side forum called Heavy's Wrong Way Craps. When ProBoards decided to drop all of the gaming related forums hosted on its servers the WWC site was taken down. Bits and pieces of the content from the site found their way onto this one in various forums - primarily the Betting Systems and Strategies sub-board. By popular demand we've brought back the dedicated Wrong Way Craps forum. Congratulations. You found it.

I've seeded the new forum with a couple of dozen threads on playing the Don'ts. I'd like to see you new forum members studying these threads, asking questions if you have them, and kick starting the new forum. I'd ask any of you old-timers who may still have some of your old posts and articles on the Don'ts stashed somewhere in your computer files to feel free to repost that material as well. I will upload some of my personal material in the days to come. But for now - you are good to go. Let's talk about the dark side.

Ok Heavy, I'll get the ball rolling for discussion.

On playing the don't side: The last couple of shooters you noticed 7'd out fairly quickly without making any points.

What do you do?
A. Bet Don't Pass no odds?
B. Bet Don't Pass and lay odds?
C. Bet Don't Pass with odds and make 2 Don't Come bets with odds?
D. Forget the Don't pass, and just lay a long lost number and wait for the 7 to roll.
E. "The Hedge": Lay a lost number and make a place bet on 6 and 8?

Any thoughts?

I'll be here and will try to talk DF into stopping by.

Today was a good darkside hit 'n run day. I won 66%. Could have been more but I rolled from the rightside from the top of the hook before leaving and pissed away some, and then some more on the guy next to me.

I took the spot from the DAVE. He was leaving and I asked if I could squeeze in. He had a big stack of purple in his hand and the Coach said he did well. The 4's were hopping back when the point was 4. Other than that it was a sweet darkside table.

Put some icing on the cake when I put a $10 spot in a penny slot I like to decompress a little before leaving. Did well and it was the 1st time in a long time I ended up a + $100 winner on a penny slot. All in all a good day. Trying to keep the positive vibes but will turn on the Bears game after this post. Dumb huh?

Darksiders ask the questions.

Good Luck


Golfer

UNHH!!Not bad 4 brave

With the New Year approaching , my getting older, which also means that I don`t play as often as I once did, and time to come up with my New Year 2015 strategy, I think I shall just keep it simple for the year 2015, although everything I do is simple , since I am a simpleton.

I shall take 4% of my Total Gambling Bankroll , which will be my Buy In and also be my Loss Limit (money from my bankroll that I am willing to risk per session). This amount will be about $400.

I shall just play the table minimum DP wager and lay odds, one loss per shooter.

On a $5 table ---$5 DP 18(15) 24(16) 30(15)

On a $10 table --$10 DP 12(10) 15(10) 20(10)

On a $15 table --$18(15) 24(16) 30(15)

On a $25 table --30(25) 39(26) 50(25)

I shall always try and get on the table with the lowest minimum , since I must play at tables with shooters because I never shoot the dice (a Crossroads experience one night coming home from Tunica). I also would prefer not playing on a slow table. Cold tables are great but I do prefer choppy tables that are trending cold ,because shooters are likely to hang on choppy to hot tables longer than cold tables. I can handle those kinds of tables because I am not playing with "scared money". I do like to win , but losses don`t bother me (much).

Question: How do I think that I am going to stay ahead during the year?

Answer: Leave the table when I am ahead!!!!!!!!!!!!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year (As the Rabbi at work said to me the other day, " Merry Christmas , Happy Hanukkah, Merry and Happy everything", as our country and the world is in chaos.)

What do you do?
A. Bet Don't Pass no odds?
B. Bet Don't Pass and lay odds?
C. Bet Don't Pass with odds and make 2 Don't Come bets with odds?
D. Forget the Don't pass, and just lay a long lost number and wait for the 7 to roll.
E. "The Hedge": Lay a lost number and make a place bet on 6 and 8?

Assuming a $10 Game:

Don't Pass bet for $15. No odds at this point. Does not matter to me what point is established.
$10 Don't Come. Hedged by the DP bet. Once it is established I lay $30 odds behind the DP and Double odds behind whatever point is established.
Now I make continuous Don't Come bets with Double odds. If any number gets knocked off I'll replace it one time. If two numbers get knocked off I stop making Don't Come bets. If three get knocked off I leave the flat bets up but take down the odds. Wait for a decision.

Nothing better than getting five numbers up, then seeing the seven roll immediately after the five count. When that happens I know I'm winning - and our old buddy Frank is somewhere on a table losing.

Heavy, do you have a set rule for 7s and 11s that may knock of your DP? Reload or not?

London Shooter wrote:Heavy, do you have a set rule for 7s and 11s that may knock of your DP? Reload or not?

-Yes really what happens if you get knocked off your DP ?

my thoughts get knocked off 2 times start a doey don't progression !

If I get knocked off a DP bet by a 7 or 11 I simply sit the remainder of that shooter's hand out.

$nakeeye$ wrote:

Howard rock n roller wrote:Ok Heavy, I'll get the ball rolling for discussion.

On playing the don't side: The last couple of shooters you noticed 7'd out fairly quickly without making any points.

What do you do?
A. Bet Don't Pass no odds?
B. Bet Don't Pass and lay odds?
C. Bet Don't Pass with odds and make 2 Don't Come bets with odds?
D. Forget the Don't pass, and just lay a long lost number and wait for the 7 to roll.
E. "The Hedge": Lay a lost number and make a place bet on 6 and 8?

Any thoughts?

Bypass the PL / DP by ALL means -

TOO MUCH volatility -

Bite the bullet on the vig and LAY AGAINST the point established -

A complete study was done using 72 hrs at the craps table concerning the quote above about whether to Lay against the point to get away from the Losses of the 7 and 11, thus incurring a $1 charge for every $20 won. This $1 although sounds like 'Whats a buck' adds up. If this table stays cold or if you just remain there for 1 shooter or 15 shooters, you are better off playing $10PL / $10 Dp then make your Lay. This will save you the $1 big per $20 won. If you make 50 lays on this (say you are playing a strictly DP system, you saved $50 less any CO 12's which occur 1 in 36. The study showed playing Doey/Dont and then Laying is cheaper long term and your giving too much edge away.

Besides, say your DP happens to be a Dominant 9 being rolled. And Now this dominant number is you DP point. Well bc you are dory/dont, instead of laying odds, you just take odds. Now you get true 3:2 odds on the 9 as opposed to 7:5 place bet. You have options. You can also bump up the amount from table Min to a higher matched value to be able to Lay more odds if so be increasing as you are winning.


hope this helps,
VDC

"The study showed playing Doey/Dont and then Laying is cheaper long term and your giving too much edge away."

VDC, I don't know if I can agree with this. Well said about the drag on profit by paying the vig. However, in negating the value of the flat DP you give up a huge edge once a point is established. Even money payouts on the DP are always at an advantage to the player. Payouts on the odds portion are at true odds which is always at less than even money.

Now don't get me wrong. I have felt the pain of comeout winners just like everyone else. I do hedge on the comeout by betting an appropriate sized Yo bet.....when they are showing on comeouts.
I will lay a single number on the comeout to protect my flat (if 7's are showing) and take it down after a point is established. Yes, the lay sometimes gets taken out..........but I keep the even money payout advantage on the flat DP.

The best choice for any darksider when the comeout winners are flying is to take a walk. Our difference of opinion is that I feel hedging differently from the doey-don't retains the even money value of the flat, whereas the doey don't eliminates it. Now, whether this is mathematically better I don't know, but it feels so.

I am not a math guy and slept in my own bed last night, not at a Holiday Inn Express. Maybe Maddog, Thom, Heavy or MP could wrap their arms around this comparison and show the real math effects.

On a side note, years ago to fight competition a local casino took no vig on all laybets. It was like having a temp pass to heaven. It ony lasted a couple of months but in that scenario I would agree with your view 1000%.


Golfer

I don't always bet the don'ts, but when I do, I follow Dylanfreak's policy of one loss per shooter.

A nice relaxed way to play, and often a winning strategy.

6dollar6

As of right now, on a $5 or $10 table, I always play a table minimum DP wager and lay $30 in odds no matter what the point number is. What I am trying to do is play as close to an even game as I can. I do not worry about losses and do not celebrate wins. My loss limit is my buy in, $400. I play using the Grafstein front rake back rack method and usually play between one and two hours per session. I leave the table after wagering the chips in my buy in, whether I am ahead or behind. I guess the reason for not playing long is old age.

Do you do this once on every shooter?

Yes, one loss per shooter.

No tippin' ? Bummer..

I have adjusted to (parlay as of $20)
5-15-35-20-30-40-50-70

Right on, bahd.

Wow, interesting read.

I'm strictly a DP player, and unlike everyone else here, I'll stay in for more than one loss. It has worked well for me in the past, but I'm open to trying other (proven) methods.

Welcome KC. Do you bet odds on your DPs? If so how do you approach your 4 step martingale in this case given it must get messy depending on the number that is set. Also how do you handle 7s and 11s?

I am no fan of the martingale system, but would still be interested to hear your approach with DP play.

London Shooter wrote:Welcome KC. Do you bet odds on your DPs? If so how do you approach your 4 step martingale in this case given it must get messy depending on the number that is set. Also how do you handle 7s and 11s?

I am no fan of the martingale system, but would still be interested to hear your approach with DP play.

Thanks LS!

I only use the 4-step Martingale system if I'm not betting odds on DPs. Having looked up and practicing the DP/DC strategy, I no longer use the Martingale system for that...I'll just bet the odds on DP and DC.

I've also tried betting the lay odds (apologies if I'm not saying this correctly), and that seems to work as well.