Front Money

[Bankerdude80]

If you are going to be a regular visitor to LV, why not just open a front money account at one or more of the houses where you play the most. You can then add to that account as you win, and withdraw when you need walking around money. When the balance gets too big, ask for a check for the surplus on the way out of town. You will never have to worry about carrying too much cash back and forth from your home base.

Has/Does anybody use Front Money? What is the minimum typically required to establish an "account"? Do they automatically close it if it falls below a certain amount? Do the casinos provide a separate account number or do they just use your Players Card Number? If you establish an account at one Mlife casino will you be able to access it at other Mlife casinos? (same as Caesar's Entertainment/Total Rewards?) I read MP's article on front money and have a fairly good understanding of it, just needed a few more specifics. I assume to check the balance you would just visit the cage or call the cashier/credit department? What is the minimum required per access request? $1K ? I would think you could just send in additional monies via bank check to replenish (hopefully never required). Can you keep the account indefinitely provided you keep $$ in it? Do the casinos purge the account after a period of time with no activity? Any service charges or maintenance fees? Will having it provide me with better comp offers?

[Blackcloud]

UNHH!! BC finds that a check cashing limit works as well if not better.

[London Shooter]

Good questions Banker which I too would like more information on if possible.

[Jazzycat]

Can you tell me where to find MP's article on this subject?

[Bankerdude80]

Can you tell me where to find MP's article on this subject?

Hi Jazzycat.

MP's article on Front Money/Casino Credit can be found at his Dice Institute site. It was written several years back, not sure if things have changed since. You can access the site here:

http://diceinstitute.mxf.yuku.com/reply ... y-43885721

You might need to register to access, once registered you will need to be approved before you can access the site. He provides instructions (Craps Chat) towards the bottom of this page here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=740&p=34666#p34666

At one time it was a paid subscription site, I know MP has allowed Heavy's APC members complementary access for a short time, not sure how much longer.
MP might be able to provide further details.

[Mad Professor]

Yes, the best (and free) portal to sign-up for the Dice Institute message-board is here:

http://diceinstitute.mxf.yuku.com/portal/register

That will give you access to my several thousand article archive, as well as all of the ongoing DI discussions, my near-daily 'At The Tables with the Mad Professor' blog, the Daily Gaming News thread, and a ton of advanced advantage-play material.

Let's turn to BankerDude's questions about Front-Money accounts.


What is the minimum typically required to establish an "account"?

It depends upon the casino. Some will open an account for as little as $1000; but most like to see an initial deposit of at least $5000 to $10,000.

Do they automatically close it if it falls below a certain amount?

No, unless you fully exhaust the entire account and draw it down to zero; the account stays open. In fact, even if you do draw it down to nothing; they'll still keep it available for further deposits for at least 90-days.

Do the casinos provide a separate account number or do they just use your Players Card Number?

Your Players Card and your government-issued photo-ID is how you access your account, either at the tables or at the cage when you want to take money out of it; so there's no need to memorize your F-money account-number.

The only time the actual Front-Money account-number MAY come into the picture is when you are sending or transferring money into it from an outside institution.

Normally, when sending money to fund that account, you simply use their banking-coordinates (name of bank or its ABA-number, bank address and/or transit-number, account-name and account-number) along with your name as the sender, and referencing it as 'Front-Money'.

If the casino has any other instructions, they will let you know ahead of time when you call them to inquire as to how to initially fund an F-M account.

If you establish an account at one Mlife casino will you be able to access it at other Mlife casinos? (same as Caesar's Entertainment/Total Rewards?)

That's always a good question when I get asked it (which is often); but the answer is always the same...it depends.

Some casinos that belong to the same corporate-family and are within the same gaming-jurisdiction, will allow multi-casino access; but many won't. The policies are always changing, so it's best to check with your target-casino and see what their current policy allows.

When you are talking to the credit office about this particular question, it is important that they are clear that you are talking about a Front-Money account and not a Line-of-Credit. Many operators treat the credit-swapability of F-money accounts differently between casinos in their corporate-family than they do L.o.C. accounts; so it's best to check for their latest up-to-date policy on that.

I assume to check the balance you would just visit the cage or call the cashier/credit department?

Yes, that is correct. The other thing you can do is to ask the Pit Manager to "see how much head-room" is left on your F-money account.

What is the minimum required per access request? $1K ?

Again, it depends on the casino. If you draw down a K-rock ($1000) at Casino Royale, Hooters, CircusCircus, or Terrible's; that would be fine; but if you do that at Bellagio or Caesars; the pit-suits will often act like it's not even worth their effort.

My advice is to establish your F-M account at a place where you like to play, and at a place where they will appreciate your level of play.

I would think you could just send in additional monies via bank check to replenish (hopefully never required). Can you keep the account indefinitely provided you keep $$ in it?

Yes and yes.

Do the casinos purge the account after a period of time with no activity?

No.

Any service charges or maintenance fees?

No, never, but neither do they pay interest on any money you have on deposit, no matter how much or how long you keep it there.

Will having it provide me with better comp offers?

Generally, yes, but it also primarily depends on how much you work (use) the account, and of course your theo (theoretical EV).


Any other questions about F-money, Lines-of-Credit, just let me know. I would be happy to answer them.


MP

[Bankerdude80]

Awesome MP. Thank you for your response. Also, thank you for willingness to always share your breadth of knowledge regarding casinos and craps.

[rhythm roller]

Hi MP,

I also have a question regarding a Front Money account.

Say you win a bit of money at the casino where you have a Front Money account established. Would the casino be willing to add these winnings to your Front Account? I would guess that this answer will be yes. If you add the winnings to your Front Money account and later after returning home decide you want that money transferred back to your regular bank account, will the casino be willing to do that transaction electronically or do you always have to just remove the money from the casino in cash?

Thanks!

[Mad Professor]

Hi MP,

I also have a question regarding a Front Money account.

Say you win a bit of money at the casino where you have a Front Money account established. Would the casino be willing to add these winnings to your Front Account? I would guess that this answer will be yes. If you add the winnings to your Front Money account and later after returning home decide you want that money transferred back to your regular bank account, will the casino be willing to do that transaction electronically or do you always have to just remove the money from the casino in cash?

Thanks!

Hi RhythmRoller,

Yes, you can add any winnings to your Front Money account, just as you can draw it down to zero whenever you want. Because it is your money (as opposed to it being their money on-loan like it is with a Line of Credit); they are very flexible in what you can do with it.

Repatriating your money is pretty simple, and again, they are quite flexible in how they let you do it.

~You can draw it down (entirely if you want) in chips at the table, and then convert it to cash at the cage. This is especially effective if you are pissed-off at the crew or pit-dwellers and want to make a point.

~You can withdraw it all in cash at the cage, or have them cut a cheque in your name.

~If you wired it in, you can have them return it to you (at their expense) by the same way you sent it to them.

~If you are back home, they generally only like to return it the same way you sent it, to the same institution that you sent it through. They will make exceptions in exigent circumstances; but each casino's policies on this vary, so you should check in advance.


MP

[gargoil]

MP Let me ask a question

If you play Balleys, Paris or The Quad, are they in the same league as Bellagio and Ceasers?
When I say same league I mean as far as 5/10 thousand deposit and 1K withdraw for play

Thanks

[rhythm roller]

Thanks MP! Great info!

I'm going to try the electronic route prior to my next trip to Vegas.

[Blackcloud]

UNHH!!Ballys, Paris, Quad, Harrahs, Rio, Planet Hollywood and Caesars, ALL use the same players card. UNHHH!!BC have check cashing at three of them

[Jazzycat]

@Banker & MP,
Thank you very much for your assistance and detailed responses! I'm new to the DI culture...but am beginning to "connect the dots". I'm assuming MP is the same MP who has posted numerous essays on Dice Setter.com (?). If so, I just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed reading your book and other writings. Thank you for sharing all of this information with all of us. I look forward to reading your material on the Dice Institute's website.

[Mad Professor]

Good questions!

~Yes, I am the same MP/Mad Professor who wrote 'The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible' and who posts most of his advantage-play dice-influencing material over on the Dice Institute message-board.

~As Blackcloud stated, Ballys, Paris, Quad, Harrahs, Rio, Planet Hollywood and Caesars all share the same Players Card, but only some of them offer cross-property credit privileges with each other. When you are talking to their credit department, they can give you the latest policies as to which properties you will be able to extend your Front Money access to.

~Gargoil's question about Bally's, Paris or The Quad 'being in the same league' as Bellagio and Caesars in terms of how they view the size of your total F-Money account and the size of the marker you draw at the tables; I would say that it depends.

While Harrah's or The Quad generally draws a different level of play (and players) than does Bellagio or Caesars; they all tend to treat Front-Money players quite a bit better than they treat the average craps-tourist.

However, I think suits in all of those properties would generally feel that a less-than-$1000 marker is a bit wasteful of their time or effort. I'm not saying they won't do it, but rather that at some of those places, they'll do it, but possibly do so with a bit of a "Why are you wasting my time?!" attitude.


MP

[rhythm roller]

Hi All!

Since we were talking about this subject I found the casino news I read this AM of particular interest. This idea is not exactly about Front Money but maybe some day it will evolve to be useful instead of doing the Front Money account. I am pasting the article I read below so read and enjoy. Thanks!



Gamblers will soon be able to use prepaid access cards to play slot machines in Nevada, a technological advancement that has some critics concerned that easier access to cash in a casino would broaden problem gambling.

The Nevada Gaming Commission on Thursday approved amendments to two regulations that would allow the use of prepaid access instruments in conjunction with approved wagering accounts.

The amendments take effect immediately, and technical standards will be published soon to guide companies. The amended regulations enable state Gaming Control Board Chairman A.G. Burnett to administratively approve the use of equipment.

New Jersey already allows the use of prepaid access cards. The company that petitioned the Gaming Control Board for regulatory changes, Las Vegas-based Sightline Interactive, has contracts with three companies there.

The changes approved by regulators would give slot players some of the same access to funds enjoyed by race and sports book gamblers and online poker players.

Here’s how it would work: A player who wants to use an access card in a slot machine would first have to register at a casino with identification that verifies a player’s address and date of birth. Registration would also tie a player to a casino’s loyalty card. Players could then load the cards at their banks by transferring funds from a checking or savings account.

Harry Hagerty, president and chief financial officer of Sightline, said his company’s agreement with banks puts limitations on the amount of money that a player could load to an access card — a maximum of $2,000 a day, $4,500 a week and $10,000 a month, and the most a player could put on a card at any time is $25,000.

Regulators also said a player wouldn’t be able to use the card for at least 15 minutes after transferring the funds.

Hagerty said prepaid cards would be a benefit to casinos and players. Casinos, he said, spend an estimated $35 million a year for employees who count money and perform cash accounting. Players, he said, would be safer because those with cards would not be carrying big wads of cash after hitting a jackpot, making them vulnerable to robbers.

“Winning a jackpot can be a dual-edged sword because it can bring additional attention to you from thieves,” Hagerty said.

Players also have complained that fees associated with accessing cash in automatic teller machines are on the rise and that some ATMs charge 4 percent to 8 percent of a withdrawal amount as a fee. Hagerty said focus groups say high ATM fees has become the No. 1 complaint of casino patrons.

Hagerty stressed that only prepaid access cards would work in slot machines, not debit or credit cards.

Carol O’Hare, executive director of the Nevada Council on Problem Gambling, said she was concerned about the easy accessibility of funds when the Control Board conducted a workshop meeting about the regulation in January.

O’Hare could not attend Thursday’s meeting but wrote a letter to the commission voicing concern about a change in terminology in the proposed regulation that would require establishment of a “cashless wagering system” instead of a “wagering account.” Commissioners were told the new terminology would expand the types of systems that would be required to comply with the rules.

Former Gaming Control Board Chairman Dennis Neilander, the attorney representing Sightline and also an adviser to the Nevada Council on Problem Gambling, said the company has agreed to place a message about problem gambling that would be visible to a player transferring funds from a bank account to an access card as recommended in January by O’Hare.

[Bankerdude80]

Hi All! Since we were talking about this subject I found the casino news I read this AM of particular interest:

"...Hagerty said prepaid cards would be a benefit to casinos and players. Casinos, he said, spend an estimated $35 million a year for employees who count money and perform cash accounting. Players, he said, would be safer because those with cards would not be carrying big wads of cash after hitting a jackpot, making them vulnerable to robbers.

'Winning a jackpot can be a dual-edged sword because it can bring additional attention to you from thieves,' Hagerty said.

1) Will users be able to withdraw using the card to get cash from the cage?
2) If the banks allow a transfer to the card, will the casinos allow a transfer from the card back to the bank?

Personally, I'm resistant to techno-change so I probably wouldn't like it. That being said, after its introduced I would probably be open to using it once I determined they've worked out any bugs. I do feel it makes it too easy for people to burn through their cash, hence the reason for no casino opposition. Holding cash in your pocket has a much different (better) meaning/feeling than holding a debit/credit/casino cash card.

[Blackcloud]

UNHH!!Him not so smart; BC carries mailing envelopes to our bond fund UNHH!!Jackpot win taken in check for deposit only, and becomes "fly paper"

[rhythm roller]

1) Will users be able to withdraw using the card to get cash from the cage?
2) If the banks allow a transfer to the card, will the casinos allow a transfer from the card back to the bank?.


Bankerdude,

Yeah, good questions and I sure don't know the answers. Hopefully they will work all the kinks out with the slot play and then bring the cards to table games when it is a known. I probably wouldn't be interested in it until MGM is using it as I am not a big Caesars player.

The card thing does have appeal to me though as a woman who doesn't like to carry around large amounts of cash, usually doesn't have a car so walks everywhere, and leaves the USA for foreign living once my casino trip is over. If I have a large win at the last minute it might be easier to have it on the card rather than trying to visit a bank before flying out. The electronic transfer would be a must though.

Guess we will see in a year or so if this card thing has legs!