Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

I feel like I have a solid enough grasp of all the games in a casino and would be comfortable dealing any of them if that were my line of work, but I am coming to the realization I don't know how a slot machine works (good thing they don't need dealers).

I firmly believe that if you want the big win in a casino it's gonna come from a slot machine. Let's face it pressing your bought 10 to the table max and hitting it another five times just doesn't happen very often, nor does that Royal Flush in Let It Ride despite the fact I am certain in my life I have played the required hands to coax it out of the deck. In any event if I'm having a winning session at the craps table I put $100 into a $5 slot machine (two coin max) and spin for $10 a try hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. It hasn't happened yet. My lightning bottle, sadly, is still empty.

A recent conversation with a co-worker got me thinking that I really don't understand the payoff of a slot machine anyway. Not that knowing how it works changes anything, but I'd like to know.

I have always thought (for no reason than I have just thought this way) that if a slot machine was set to payout 90% that it did the math and counted all the money it took in on Monday and let's say that was $1000 and set itself to payout $900 on Tuesday at random increments. If for some reason it didn't pay out the $900 it just added the difference to Wednesdays payouts and so on.

I guess that's a pretty dumb way to look at it, but I really don't know what dictates the payouts then. Is it random to the point that all the random outcomes just equal 90% payback and the house could (in theory) lose money on a slot machine?

If someone could explain this in a third grade level (and type slow) to me I'd appreciate it as I really just want to know.

A slot machine doesn't work in terms of Wednesday or Thursday payouts... they use very long term math that can stretch into months. Typically the PAR [Payout and Reel] sheets are tested over something from 1 million to 10 million spins. The reason that such large numbers are used has much to do with the inner math of how a slot machine works. A machine has Physical and Virtual reels, the actual reel has something like 22 stops on it but the electronics actually work as if that Physical reel were a virtual reel with 256 stops. If the machine only had and used 22 stops it would have 10,648 combinations but once it uses those physical reels as virtual ones with 256 stops that number goes to 16,698,695,616 combinations... thus requiring the PAR sheet to run though one hell of a lot of numbers to allow it to hit each payout.

To explain virtual reels in a simple way [not exactly how they work but you'll get the idea], say the stops are numbered 1 - 22 and the jackpot wins on a roll of 1-1-1. Once every 22 rolls the 1 is on the pay line on the first reel once every 22x it lines on the 1st line it should line up on either the 2nd or the 3rd then once every 22x that it lines up on 2 lines it will hit on the third. This would mean 1 of 22 it lines on the 1st and 1 of 484 it lines up on 2 lines and 1 of 10,648 you'd hit a jackpot... then enters the idea of virtual reels. To make an easy explanation of it lets assume the machine has no wild symbol and the only way to hit the top payout is 1 - 1 - 1 appearing on the payline, the internal electronics designate the virtual reel to coincide with the Physical reel in such a way that reel one brings up the 1 heavily once every 16 spins [this means that the 1 is more heavily weighted than some other stops on that reel occurring 16 out of 256 times meaning some stops occur maybe 1x or 2x per 256 spins], then to offset the odds the 2nd reel is set to bring up the 1 once every 64 spins and the final reel is set to do it once every 128 spins. That means the math of how many spins should be necessary to hit if all the possible outcomes are factored is 16 * 64 * 128 or it would hit 1x per 131,072. If the virtual stops are set differently you could have a jackpot as close as once every 1.29 spins on average or as far apart as once every 16.7 million spins or anywhere in between.

With the usage of a virtual reel while the lineup on the reels may look the same, they may not be the same... even to the extent that technically a machine could be run to NEVER have a random number sequence since you'd have to watch it through 16.7 million spins for it to repeat and you wouldn't be sure which virtual stops each reel was on to know what the next spin should be. Worse still even if you watched through 16.7 million cycles at 1 per 6 seconds it would require 3 yrs of watching 24/7 to record them all. If you walked away or fell asleep you'd never know how many you missed.

Also I'd be remiss if I failed to point out that after reviewing some PAR sheets I know that certain payouts NEVER occur using 2x coins on some machines ["never" being in a huge sampling]. Anyway I hope that helped somewhat, its about as third grade as I could make it. Also I should point out that video slots are a totally different thing since they tend to have 5 reels and as many as 50 or more symbols on the reel and even without virtual reels that allows for 300 million combinations but if it used virtual reel stops that figure becomes 1,099,511,627,776 combinations and again it would not be necessary to ever use "random" numbers since with 1 trillion combinations it could simply play them each sequentially. As for volatility while you as a gambler would have it, the casino under that circumstance wouldn't exactly have volatility as much as preplanned "drawdown" vs their long term take. Or put another way, imagine if there were a way of knowing every 36th roll of your dice was going to be a 12 but you couldn't bet it, if roll number 36 were a comeout you'd know you were going to lose it but you'd also know you had to lose that to continue into the upcoming hand... the casino knows that their win vs loss would swing at a certain point but they also know how many spins at which it should occur and because the machine is there 24/7 eventually it would go through both swings.

UNHH!!Since they are now computer operated, BC believes that like the VPs, they too are programed ! ! UNHH!!Therefore since there are now far too many times the original 8800 possibilities
to score a jackpot, the big hit is always an accident. The gaming commissions have already proven that they are incapable of finding the hidden prograns

AtGame7

shunkaha and Blackcloud have summed it up , good explanation

For an even deeper explanation of all things slot machines
( gamblers and industry personnel)

.
I find the Widely available ,from traditional book outlets,
even now via Kindle or hard back

Addiction By Design Natasha Schull,PhD .....author

Published by Princeton University Press.

Very well researched..
with many footnotes to annotate the facts.. I M O .well worth the read

Just me saying

W C

if a slot machine was set to payout 90%

That should probably read: "if a slot machine was set to payout 90% (after expenses)". No way in hell their advertising is truthful. We get offers all the time, "LOOSEST SLOTS IN XXXX!!!!!" Really???? If their slots are loose, it is probably because they are not anchored properly to the floor.

That is an excellent reply on how the standard machines work shunkaha and has made it clearer in my mind about how things work.

Is it also true that with the virtual reels they will plug in "near misses" so they come up much more often than expected, thus to keep those putting their money in who have the false belief they have been close to the big payouts numerous times?

UNHH!!"Pays out 97% over life time"
UNHH!!BC has seen that when a machine exceeds that figure, be it ten years or two weeks, "da box" is GONE UNHH!!First seen at NaThang VN, when a Plastered Aussie Capt hit the same 25 cent mechanical 7 times in one evening UNHH!!Since that time every machine that BC has Royaled, has not been there on the next visit

London Shooter wrote:That is an excellent reply on how the standard machines work shunkaha and has made it clearer in my mind about how things work.

Is it also true that with the virtual reels they will plug in "near misses" so they come up much more often than expected, thus to keep those putting their money in who have the false belief they have been close to the big payouts numerous times?

You'll see a great deal of near misses, you'll also see parts of cycles that are almost identical to the lead up to a good cycle [I know a slot player that usually does very well and I know for a fact he's seen what looked like a lead in to a very hot cycle when really it was more like having your wallet run through a paper shredder while it was still in your pocket]. If you ever wish to know about the near miss thing on a given machine, look at a PAR sheet for it if you can locate one, it will show you everything you need to know once you learn how to interpret it.

obie1 wrote: As far as 90% payoff... that includes those rare "jackpot payoffs" that occur once in a blue moon... Oh, buy the way: if you are so fortunate to hit one of those beauties, the Casino takes it's sweet time to pay you off. It wants all of the "Greek Choir" to hear that.... : "Bing, Bing Bing...." for as long as possible, while you blow your jackpot on an adjacent machine while waiting to get paid off.

Well, that's my opinion.

They don't call it "The one arm bandit" for nothing,

Obie1

That's not completely accurate, I personally know at least one slot player that has done extremely well for himself [low 6 figures profit over the yrs] and met another that did slots as a profession but I never discussed his exact win figures as I felt it would be indiscreet to ask [though I know he made more at it than the average person makes working in a yr]. I have watched the player I know win with a frequency that defied any explanation I could think of coupled with the fact he told me at various times when a slot was about to hit, coupled with a $3,000 win machines that have a HUGE hold that I have never seen win at that level.


That being said if you believe a physical skill can overcome the house edge on dice why wouldn't you think that there may be those that overcome the advantage that slots possess? For that matter you profess to have a strategy to overcome the house edge at craps and it is not dependent upon a physical skill, yet you believe slots cannot be beaten [presumably because a machine incapable of generating a true random number is the thing to be beaten]?

UNHH!!Don't call VP a slot-you earn half the points on a VP, as compared to a reel slot.

.
This from http://WWW.TechDirt.Com

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20071026/022323.shtml
...........
Has any casino made an effort to refund those slot junkies who lost $$$$$$$
since the last time a "MAL FUNCTION MACHINE was declared/certified to have been working..functionally speaking
.
Right is right......KNOW

Just me saying

W C

I have near worn out my search engine while seeking an answer for this question.
.
QUESTIONING SEARCH :
"Can the Slot-Playing Public Get Par Sheets?"

The consensuses seems to be a resounding NOT LIKELY

John Robinson .......robison.casinocitytimes.com
and The Wizard of ODDS also seemingly to unearthed very little information about obtaining
the P A R sheet for a specific slot machine....

Freedom of Information Requests are ignored under "Trade Secrets" defense.....

Also ,as I comprehend, unless one actually has an understanding how to
decipher anything useful it is a long shot to attempt to read one.........

My search was for the United States of A.

Perhaps another sovereign nation the information is more forthcoming.........

Just me saying

W C

wild child wrote:I have near worn out my search engine while seeking an answer for this question.
.
QUESTIONING SEARCH :
"Can the Slot-Playing Public Get Par Sheets?"

The consensuses seems to be a resounding NOT LIKELY

John Robinson .......robison.casinocitytimes.com
and The Wizard of ODDS also seemingly to unearthed very little information about obtaining
the P A R sheet for a specific slot machine....

Freedom of Information Requests are ignored under "Trade Secrets" defense.....

Also ,as I comprehend, unless one actually has an understanding how to
decipher anything useful it is a long shot to attempt to read one.........

My search was for the United States of A.

Perhaps another sovereign nation the information is more forthcoming.........

Just me saying

W C

The PAR sheets are out there, if you know how to look for them [not for every machine but for specific ones] as for reading them... no one said it was easy. I've read the PAR sheets and they are confusing at first but no more so than Algebra or Trig once you are used to most of it. As with everything else in life if you know how to look, where to look, and what you're looking for you'll have much better success finding it. Put another way, those things in life worth having or finding are most often not things you can find easily and especially using poor search parameters and or techniques.

I will say this though, some PAR sheets are easier and more straight forward than others... the most recent of the PAR sheets I know from the player I talked about are something like 7 or 8 yrs old but the machines are still out there.

To learn exactly how slot machine's work, head over to this link, it tells you everything you need to know.
http://wizardofodds.com/games/slots/

In essence, it works exactly like any other table game. Numbers are generated randomly and you are paid out at lesser odds of what it actually is to make the winning spin. For example, in american roulette a number is randomly generated by spinning a wheel and you're paid at 35-1 for hitting a 38-1 shot.

The reason the casinos are overflowing with slots is because they make the casino the most money. On the other side of that, it means the patrons lose the most money on them mainly because there is a MUCH higher house advantage on slots and a betting cycle is WAY quicker than table games. To use roulette as an example again, a betting cycle consists of laying out your various bets across the table, having the wheel spun by the dealer, the number is called, all losing bets are removed from the table, all winning bets are manually payed by the dealer and then collected by the lucky winner. In slots, you press the button, it spins, tells you whether you have won or lost near instantaneously and your winnings/losings are automatically added/deducted. Within a couple seconds, a new betting cycle commences.

AVOID slots like the plague. They will destroy you in a similar fashion

It's all relative though. I'm not a slot player most of the time but happily run a $20 through a machine every once in a while when on a break sometimes. People can sit at low denom slots for ages on a small bankroll despite the high number of decisions per minute, meanwhile we've all seen people lose thousands at craps in just a few rolls of the dice.

I don't see the appeal of them at all. Pressing a button and watching the reels spin just isn't my idea of fun. In my lifetime I've only fed about $100 total through them. Never won a thing, perhaps that's a good thing.

If you want to know how a slot works - next time you're at the casino and you see me, ask and I'll show you. Pretty simple really. You hand me a hundred dollar bill and I kick you in the balls. That's how they work.

Heavy wrote:If you want to know how a slot works - next time you're at the casino and you see me, ask and I'll show you. Pretty simple really. You hand me a hundred dollar bill and I kick you in the balls. That's how they work.

Great analogy! Allow me to expand on it to more accurately reflect the workings of a slot machine...

1. Find Heavy (slot machine) in the casino
2. Give him $100 (insert $100)
3. Poke him in the eye (press button)
4. Watch him become enraged (bells and whistles)
5. He kicks you in the balls (Not a fun way to spend your hard earned $$$)

SHOOTITALL wrote:"LOOSEST SLOTS IN XXXX!!!!!" Really???? If their slots are loose, it is probably because they are not anchored properly to the floor.

You have to be careful with things like "98% Payout Carousel" signs. That means you have a carousel with - perhaps 24 machines on it. Those machines - when averaged over time - payout 98%. You may have 5 machines set on 78% payout, 12 set on 85% payout, 6 set on 98% payout, and 1 set on 120% payout - or whatever. The total of all of the payouts on all of the machines has to equal the 98% number (after expenses, as SIA noted) - but only ONE machine pays out greater than 98%. Your job is to identify that machine. Their job is to move that machine around from time to time to make it a little harder on you. Each machine has an ID number on it so you CAN track them down.

Although the machines function on a random number generator - they still develop patterns you can identify if you track them long enough. I have a couple of machines at home and their patterns are fairly predictable. They'll start out with some minor hits. The hit size and frequency will increase until they jackpot. Then they'll have a couple of more fairly decent hits before going to sleep. At that point they'll go to sleep for thousands of spins - enough to recoup what they paid out when they jackpotted. Then they repeat the process. One is a 78% machine and one is 85%.

When scouting for a machine I always look for a machine that the last player left on a play-out. I look for bar bar bar or whatever graphic the machine uses. I look for the little pay-out meter that says Winner Paid XXX Coins. If I'm looking at bonus level machines like Wheel of Fortune I'm looking at the amount of the bonus last paid. If I have a choice between a machine that paid a 25 coin bonus and a 200 coin bonus I pick the one that paid the 200. That's because I know it has a history of paying 200 coins. Just working with the information I have.

As far as slots are concerned - I'll simply say I've been very successful with the strategy I've developed through the years. I stick primarily with high limit machines. I'll play a $1 machine but typically only if max coin is $5 to $9 in. Note some $1 machines go as high as $45 max coin in. Primarily I play $5 machines. Occasionally $10. I pick a machine based on my scouting and put $100 in. I play for six pulls. If I do not get a hit in six pulls I cash out and move on to the next one. If I do get a hit in six pulls then I'll give it six more. As long as the machine continue to hit I'll continue to play. If My $100 drops down to $60 (I've allowed a couple of extra pulls in there) then I cash out and move on to the next one. Basically I'm limiting my action so as to not chase my losses. I'm looking for a quick hit and run.

You'd be surprised at how many times I've hit a $5 machine for $100 - kept playing and took it up to $150 - then $250 - then $500 - then $1000. If, at any time, I get up $1000 I'm pretty much done. Take the money and run. If I jackpot on one I'll usually look for a nearby machine to play while waiting on the hand pay. But once I get the hand pay I'm done with slots for the day. Again, take the money and run.