Explain the merits of the "Don't Come" bet.

[senorboogiewoogie]

Howdy!

First time poster to this site.

I am not a gambler perse, but I worked in several casinos as a craps dealer and have played the "game" numerous times, and know and understand what to bet and what not too. I have been a craps dealer also, so I have been on both sides of the table.

My question, what are the merits of the Don't Come bet? In my years dealing and playing, I very rarely see anyone play this bet at all. At least for me and for most craps dealers, the Don'r Come bet is a nuicense, especially on a busy table, and also that it is so seldomly played, we the dealer are not in the habit of messing with it. It is also usually in an awkward location on the game, sort of under the dealer's armpit and not in visual range. I am sure many a boxman and supervisor has yelled at a dealer for forgetting a Dont Come on a busy game.

The bet itself is anti climactic. If the next number is a seven, the player loses. If a 2 or 3 show, it is a winner, and 12 is a push. Many times the few Don't Come players will wave off a 6/8 roll hoping to catch Crap or a 4/10. Hell, have some balls and lay the 6/8, seven is a more common roll and it is a nice payoff. I just do not see the bother with it.

You cannot really use what I call a "double up" strategy like I use in the Come, bet $5, 10, 20, 40, 80, hoping for a yo-11 or 7. I guess it would be Ok for one roll to get on a number, lay the odds and hold on. Like I said, do not fear the Lay 6/8.

But, I would rather lay the 4 and the 10. I play the Lay 4 or 10 (not together) and like $17 or $22 inside. If 7 rolls before 4 or 10 (I prefer 10 for no good reason), I will $45, covering my losses on place bets, shifting the bad number from the most common to one less common. Old strategy.

Lastly, playing Don'ts doesnt mean the player is betting with the house. It is a bet with a house advantage.

[wild child]

senorboogiewoogie
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I have not attended a casino dealer school..
.I used to believe the dealers learned the ALL & ALL of the games they deal...
Somehow I thought ,the dealer had to audition for the job as part of the hiring process...
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Most players only play one side of the dice...Their choice..usually.. THE DO SIDE( with THE DICE )
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Fewer players understand THE DO NOT GAME ( DARK SIDE or against THE DICE )
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Just as the COME WAGER faces identical ODDS of WIN / LOSS as the PASS LINE ( P/L)
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SO ALSO
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THE DON'T COME { D/C} faces identical ODDS of WIN / LOSS...as the DON ' T PASS ( D P ).
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When playing CRAPS " Youze pays youze MONEY $$ and youzes makes youzes CHOICES..
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Also when playing in a typical joint "Keep youze eyes on youze FRIES "
or in the case of the typical joint " YOUZE WAGER$ ........

It don't matter urine to a tree how much sense some guy's wagering makes good understanding..
It beees the PLAYERS WAGER($)
.
There are a number of past gone posts and discussions on SO and SUCH ...CRAPS WAGERSTRATEGY....
To the concern to the above mentioned tree,it still don't matter the same...... .

Hope dis helps

Just me saying

W C

PS: Welcome to the board ...It is like one big loveable dysfunctional family here..everyone can find a HOME

[SHOOTITALL]

first, welcome aboard to our corner of the world that is close to utopia. Heavy I am sure will explain this in his most eloquent way. But, my take is that I like winning all bets at once while only being able to lose one bet at a time. Just as you could play the come/don't come at one time (which is referred to as a doey-don't) and take you choice of taking or laying odds on the results. In one sense, you are correct because the crapless game gets by just fine without a dark side. Being me, I am not fond of that game in the least. I believe that the location of the don't come on the felt is that it is out of the way since so few folks use it. Having had dealers forget your bet, mispay, misplace a don't come, I keep a weather eye on my don't bets.
You are correct in that a lot of dealers do mis pay the bet because it is just contrary to their do side thinking. Of course, I have had do side bets mispayed also. Maybe this answer will do until it is fleshed out a bit. sia

[heavy]

I've scored some huge wins playing continuous DC bets (plus the DP) with odds - getting the bases loaded - then getting rewarded with a seven. As SIA said, it's great winning ALL of your bets at once.

There are several reasons to use the DC. I'll give just a couple of them that come to the forefront for me:

1. By not playing the DP, waiting until the point established, then betting the DC, you become more or less invisible to the right side players at the table. None of the animosity you usually get as a Don't player. Your DC becomes your primary bet if you are a one-bet player - say $25 on the DP. You get a nine established as the point and you have six ways to win versus four ways to lose. I like those odds.

2. By combining a DP bet with a DC bet you can hedge your second bet and get more money on the table with less sevens exposure. Play a $15 DP followed by a $10 DC and you have just $5 exposure on the second bet. Get it established and you have the $25 action you're looking for.

3. As you yourself noted, the DC allows the player to get more money on the table - and I will add that you can do this without laying odds - which many Don't players prefer.

As for dealers that don't know how to deal to the dark side - they'll eventually learn. Meanwhile, odds are they'll overpay you at some point. Then you have a decision to make.

[Mad Professor]

...and just to piggy-back on H's excellent points about the Don't Come...

~If a player 'waves off' having his DC bet from travelling to either the 6 or 8 (or even the 5 and 9) because he doesn't think that they're "strong enough" against the Do side of those numbers; then I'll always offer to buy them from him (if the casino allows it) for even money.

~If they (the DC-bettor and the casino) go for it; I am at a 9% advantage (54.5%-for versus 45.5%-against) over a traveled-DC on the 6 or 8...and at a 20% advantage (60%-for versus 40%-against) over a traveled-DC on the 5 or 9.


MP

[freak]

Another "merit" is that the bet only needs to win once to be an overall winner. There is a psychology in play with do betting that can easily deceive the player into feeling like a winner even though they are losing. Take this hand:

2 - 8 - 11 - 6 - 9 - 5 - 9 - 7out

The do player that goes across with single odds will lose on this hand if they leave all their bets up:
-$5, 0, 0, +$7, +$7, +$7, +$7, -$32 . Net result is a $9 loss even though there were 2 pushes and 4 winning bets.

A don't better that plays a DP and three DC bets will win:
+$5, 0, -$5, 0, 0, 0, -$5, +$15. Net result is a $10 win. There were two wins and two losses. And here's where I think the big psychological impact comes from. It feels rather like a break even hand to someone dabbling on the dont's. Only a $10 win. The do player got to "feel" like a winner four times and only lost on the first roll and the last roll. All those winners in the middle take some of the sting out of the 7out, psychologically. This lures the do player to try again. Maybe the next roll will be longer.

So I'd say the biggest "merit" of playing don't is that you get your bet and your winnings back. It's an automatic regression on every seven. Ive actually seen some don't betters do well on some of my long rolls because of the CO winners between points. THe do better has to regress on his own accord. I'm learning to do that and we're surviving. Both ways feel comfortable now. So another merit to the DC is it gives you a great way to win on a cold table.

[wild child]

.

Conceivably and at times in reality

a DON'T SIDE PLAYER could win on BOTH SIDES on the result of a single roll of the dice.

"How could such a thing as the above mention occur " : You may ask.

Let us hypothesize that:
#1 ) the DARK SIDE PLAYER has established several serial D/C wagers.
#2) the shooter actually repeats his P/L point...{ on occasion repeats of the P/L occur}
#3 ) the shooter , after winning his first PASS LINE WAGER tosses a COME OUT SEVEN
( it actually happens with greater frequency than the ill informed may accept
and that is built in to the theory which sells the copy-written ALL-TALL-SMALL to the casino )
.
The REWARD couldbe even greater $ should a TRANSITION WAGER GAME PLAYER
have BOTH his serial D/C WAGERS + a P/L exposed to that COME OUT SEVEN

Just me saying

W C

[freak]

We call that the double play. If the point is 6 or 8 and the shooter bullfrogs it sending my DC to the 6 or 8 I place a PL bet. I hope for a double play but I also think it is a sign of a potential good hand to hit the point right away, so I switch to the right side. If there is a CO seven I get a double win and then decide if I stay on the PL or just take the profit. I bet we hit that double play a half dozen times this past week. Great feeling.

[Mad Professor]

Freak brings up a very important point especially as it concerns the DI-skilled Darkside-shooter and the Darkside Paradox which we first delved into 14 or 15 years back.


The Darkside Paradox...explained

This is a brief explanation of the exponential bankroll-growing capabilities that often come from Darkside-shooting but that DON'T come from equivalent-skill same-bet-value Rightside-shooting, which I call the Darkside Paradox.

Frankly, I honestly thought it was something everybody already knew.

When I first coined the phrase "Darkside Paradox" back in 1999, I thought I was just giving a name to something that is apparent the first time you see a Darksider getting paid. I just wanted to name it something so that it was more easily referred to in m-board discussions.

Okay so let's take the full Darkside Paradox explanation right from the top.

~Let's use the example of a Rightsider Place-betting the 6 and 8 for $18 each. He has a total of $36 in action.

~Let's also have our Darksider betting $5 on the Don't Pass and then backing it in a 3x/4x/5x-Odds casino with 6x-Odds (using 6x in D-side Odds is the direct and correct inverse amount of 3x/4x/5x R-side Odds); to give himself $30 in DP-Odds. He has a total of $35 in action.

~Let's say that our Rightsider manages to collect two winning-hits of $21 each on his 6 and 8 Place-bets (a random-roller is only expected to collect a neg-ex average of 1.67 of them per hand, while a SRR-7 shooter averages 1.94, and an SRR-8 shooter can reasonably expect about 2.22 of them per hand).

~So when the 7-Out comes; our Rightsider has collected gross-revenue of $42; however, to figure out his net-profit, we still have to SUBTRACT the $36 he had on the layout when the 7-Out appeared, and which got swept away on that loss.

~After replenishing the $36 that he originally invested in this wager, that leaves our Rightsider with a net-profit of $6.

Let's see what happens to our Darksider when the 7-out shows up.

~We know that the flat $5 portion of his Don't Pass wager is paid at 1:1 even-money, so he'll get $5 for that, and his DP-Odds will be paid an average of 2:3 or $20 (that's an average of what he gets from the 1:2, 2:3, and 5:6 payouts on his inversed DP-Odds).

~In that case, his gross-revenue from that DP w/Odds bet pays a total average of $25; but wait, they also RETURN his original $5 + $30 wager-investment in full.

That means that the D-side shooter's entire bet-winning gross-revenue of $25 is NET-profit, and so that entire bet-revenue amount can be used to grow his bankroll. None of his D-side payout has to go to replenish his original investment because the casino RETURNS that entire investment to him, in full.

That doesn't happen with Rightside shooting. Instead, a Rightsider has to use most of his payout to first REPLENISH his initial investment BEFORE he can start counting his net-profit.

So we have the Rightsider who invested $36 and is able to show a $6 profit that can go towards bankroll-growth, and we have a Darksider who invested $35 and is able to show a $25 profit that can go towards bankroll growth.

The point?

The net-profit that can come from Darkside-shooting versus the net-profit that can come from equivalent-skill Rightside-shooting (where the same approximate amount of 7-exposure money is used); will average out to be several times higher for the Dark-shooter than for the Right-shooter.

And that my friends, is what I call the Darkside Paradox.

Want more on this subject?

Okay, let me offer another little snippet about it.

What is the FIRST thing that most Rightside skilled-shooter's do when it looks like this hand might actually be going somewhere?

They jack up their current Place-bets by pressing (re-investing) their just-won earnings.

How many times have you heard skilled-shooter's say something like, "I'm tossing 10 to 15 rolls per hand, but I just can't seem to get over the hump. Everytime I get everything pressed-up to make some real money...BOOM 7-Out...WTF??"

When we compare typical Right-shooting D-I hands and compare them to typical Dark-shooting D-I hands of the same 7-exposure value; the first objection that a Rightsider will have, comes in the form of, "Yeah, but what about all the times I DO get to collect on all my pressed-to-the-moon Place-bets. You can't tell me that a Darksider will make more with his basic bets than I do with my quadruple-parlayed Place-bets!!!"

Of course the answer to that would be NO, because we are no longer comparing comparables.

For example, if the Rightsider wants to include all the times when he presses his Place-bets up to five, or ten, or twenty-times their original starting-value; then we should average his total 7-exposure over many hands and many sessions and compare that new up-valued figure against how a skilled Dark-shooter's profit figures would fare with similarly up-valued bet-amounts...THEN we'd still be comparing comparables, and I can tell you quite frankly that the net-profit bankroll-growth figures for D-side vs R-side would STILL be in the 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 range in favor of the D-sider.

Again, that's just the way the Darkside Paradox works out, and R-sider's never want to consider freshly-won-but-instantly-reinvested bet-payouts as part of their bankroll...which goes a LONG way to explaining why most freshly-won-but-instantly-reinvested bet-payouts hardly ever become a permanent part of a skilled Rightside-shooter's bankroll.

It's because most of it gets swept away at the end of the hand, and the few crumbs that are left over after all that bet-pressing is what we get to call our R-side net-profit.

Now to come full circle on your concern about having to 'surrender' the dice so quickly after you successfully 7-out as a Darkside shooter; I think I can add a bit of perspective to that.

Consider this:

Knowing what we now know about potential bankroll growth-rates from both sides of the dice; a D-sider can actually suffer through three to four times more random-rollers than a R-sider...and still have the SAME hourly-earn rate if both are betting the same or similar bet-values on themselves.

So now you are up to speed about the Darkside Paradox and how that can play into a skilled dice-influencer's bankroll-expansion plans.


MP

[heavy]

For those of you who are not playing the Don'ts - or if you've ever played the Don'ts and considered saying "no action" on a Don't bet - this thread is a great primer on the merits of Don't Come betting. Dig in.

[MrLucky]

Here's a question for other DP players -

I typically like to lay $75 on the come out with a $5 3-way 7 hop and $5 yo. Once the point is established I like to lay $150 with a $75 DC bet.

This gives me a DP with double odds and a single DC bet.

At this point I used to continue with DC bets until I got knocked off twice then I remove all bets. Lately however I've been thinking that instead of hedging my DP maybe I should wait until the point is established then just lay the point for $75 instead. Sure this costs $3 vig but I don't lose the $20 that I'm hedging on the come out.

Likewise with the DC - why risk a DC bet when I can just lay that number? Am I missing something with the math?

[DarthNater]

Here's a question for other DP players -

I typically like to lay $75 on the come out with a $5 3-way 7 hop and $5 yo. Once the point is established I like to lay $150 with a $75 DC bet.

This gives me a DP with double odds and a single DC bet.

At this point I used to continue with DC bets until I got knocked off twice then I remove all bets. Lately however I've been thinking that instead of hedging my DP maybe I should wait until the point is established then just lay the point for $75 instead. Sure this costs $3 vig but I don't lose the $20 that I'm hedging on the come out.

Likewise with the DC - why risk a DC bet when I can just lay that number? Am I missing something with the math?

Hmmm, I’m confused, why are you laying a number and hopping sevens? Do you mean bet a DP for $75?

As to the other questions, I think a rephrasing would be helpful, DN8R

[MrLucky]

Sorry I typically have a $5 DP best with a $5 3-way hop of 7 was what I meant to say.

As to my 2nd question:

When I do a continuous DC bet I lose that bet to a 7 &/or 11 while winning on the 2 & 3 but if I just paid the 5% vig and passed the DC box entirely wouldn't that be better? I give up the vig but I never have to risk losing the DC bet either.

[Golfer]

Mr. Lucky,
Search the threads for Dave’s System. The way you describe your play is the same only Dave didn’t hedge. After losing twice he took down all odds, not flats. He got banned from casino in Illinois for wing too much. That is true.

[Tokendude]

http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforu ... f=17&t=117

Dave's system thread.

[House of Orange]

If you had influence with the dice and could throw a seven, find an empty table and grow rich!

[Moe Bettor]

Have had a few experiences throwing sevens on demand..well sort of on demand. Sometimes it takes too many throws. In order to get rich
doing that you have to make big bets..which probably means you're already rich, but want to get richer. Talk about attracting attention. Hey..give me a
five thousand no ten!

[House of Orange]

Of course Nick you are right, but if your "win rate" goes to 65-70%, point cycle, riches still awaits.

[MrLucky]

http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforu ... f=17&t=117

Dave's system thread.

Thank you for that.

As for shooting for a 7 it takes a special type of person. First off the dealers (not all but most) HATE Don't players because they don't tip (usually). I usually like to do this on a nearly empty table because when it's full people just don't "get it" - until I have 3 DC best with odds and throw a big Red - when they see that payoff they usually start to wonder...