consistent income???

[audionut]

OK... I know systems don't work, and the math proves it.... BUT....

I figure on a board like this with all you advanced players that SOMEBODY must be making money on a consistent basis... I mean, if not, why play???

SO...I'm just wondering what WORKS FOR YOU???? Maybe your just winning 8 out of 10 or something like that?

Otherwise this passion of mine just seems so hopeless (like an alchemist trying to turn lead into gold)....

Would love to play full time (wouldn't we all)

Short term anything can happen...

[luxlogs]

5$Bill and Dylanfreak have grind systems that seem to work and then there's always Oscar

Good Luck staying awake

[heavy]

You know, I've always been fairly successful - and by successful I don't mean I win EVERY session, but at the end of the year I end up ahead - if I follow a few tricks I learned from John Patrick years ago. First - chart for a table's trend. I know the math guys say there's no such thing as a trend at craps, so call it a streak if you want. Look for repeating patterns. This is, in fact, a large part of what Obie1's strategy does. Second - I follow that trend or streak. If the table is producing hands then I bet the right side. If the table is not producing hands I bet the Don'ts. Third - I don't bet the Pass Line except on myself when playing the right side. When betting on yourself - take full advantage of the Free Odds bet. When playing the right side I like to employ an initial steep regression. $110 inside. Yeah, the occasional quick seven out is going to whack you. It is what it is. One hit pays $35 - regress to $18 each on the six and eight. Now you have $1 at risk with $36 action. The next his gives you a $20 profit which you lock up. Then you press up and out from there. When playing the Don'ts in these situations I prefer to limit myself to a total of $25 action on any one player. I like a $15 DP bet. Once it's established I follow with a $10 DC bet. Now wait for a decision. If I get knocked off of either bet I'll lay sufficient odds on the remaining bet to recoup the loss. Sometimes you lose both bets. When that happens you're done until the next shooter. Now, $25 action may not sound like a lot to some of you, but if the table is Titanic cold and the next eight players after you seven out without making a Pass then you'll be $200 ahead. Not bad. Set win goals and loss limits - don't be afraid to walk with a $1 win.

[wild child]

audionut

At best GOING PRO
has been said frequently to be a tough way to make a living( and obviously it is far from an easy lifestyle)

For openers ,you would about have to live in or very near a TARGET RICH ENVIRONMENT

Target Rich environment being a MAJOR CASINO DESTINATION ZIP CODE

Las Vegas Nevada being the largest with about some 120~ casinos with CRAPS PITS...

While there are other markets offering more than one or two joints..
Still the other markets while offering some number of choices do offer fewer choices..

There MAY be some few very few who like a traveling road show amble around sea to shinning sea
That lifestyle takes it's toll in more than one way.....

A PROFESSIONAL ADVANTAGE CRAPS PLAYER may prefer to not be IDENTIFIED as a pro.
When asked "What is your line of work?"
They will just say something general..like construction or disabled or retired.. avoiding specifics.
.
It is no badge of honor and counter productive to be
refused entrance ( BANNED )for winning TOO MUCH TOO OFTEN
.
You would have need to spread your action around.
Give the joint several days intermissionbetween cameo appearances ( cameo appearance = a brief face in the crowd appearance ) On the outlook to take a MEGA or less than MEGA hand to a good pay day

There are two sides to the dice ..A PRO needs to take cash from what is going on..

They know their market...and have the joints,personnel other players etc sized up and approach accordingly
.
The small number I may have knowledge ...do not look the part portrayed by central casting or live lavishly.
Also they seem not to care much about COMPS

A day in the life of ( Mr / Ms ********* ) may consist of more hours
observing and lurking than actually WAGERING

With takes and time in perhaps nine separate casinos for small dollar$ amounts
with a days toil totaling less than $500 after subtracting losses from wins .........
.
There is a need for a soft landing against the day when they get bared from play
over stressed or totally busted broke . If not a soft landing ,there may be the necessity of a straight job


Just me saying

W C

[rhythm roller]

Yup,

"A hard way to make a so called easy living." In my opinion anyway.

[SHOOTITALL]

You would have to really want to abandon your family, friends, friendly comfortable surroundings to do this full time. I cannot imagine the stress it would cause which would probably irreparably damage your body. Now, I can imagine playing once or twice weekly as long as it was kept under control. Lastly, a small regular job might pay $15 per hour. An eight hour day would be $120. So, figure out how much income you want/need and noodle it out. I had rather swat flys. sia

[Morgue]

I'm pretty sure chucking dice would be a much better career than what I currently do. Unless you guys are professional sportsmen, I could almost safely assume the same would go for you.
It would be a dream to make a living off of a fun hobby.

[Bushido]

I'm pretty sure chucking dice would be a much better career than what I currently do. Unless you guys are professional sportsmen, I could almost safely assume the same would go for you.
It would be a dream to make a living off of a fun hobby.

When a fun hobby turns into a job it will soon cease to be fun...

[JB85]

I'm pretty sure chucking dice would be a much better career than what I currently do. Unless you guys are professional sportsmen, I could almost safely assume the same would go for you.
It would be a dream to make a living off of a fun hobby.

When a fun hobby turns into a job it will soon cease to be fun...

Yup. I spent a few years fresh out of college, grinding the minis, trying to play professional golf for a living. Golf quit being fun. If you want to make a living at any sport/hobby, you need to eat, sleep and breathe it. It will consume you. Add on the fact that craps would not have "fixed" expenses....you will likely see huge swings in bankroll (your own money) to generate any meaningful income. I doubt it would be possible and if it is, it certainly wouldn't be fun.

Back to the OP: I think you can generate income from craps. But not consistently on a week to week basis. You would have to have an adequate bankroll that you don't "need" which eliminates most of the people that want to "generate income".

[Dylanfreake]

Playing craps for me is just entertainment and nothing else. Although I used to get uptight about the happenings at a table, I now just play the game with the realization that "anything can happen at a craps table".

The casino is not your enemy. They just want to offer a fair game. The house edge is on their side and that is what keeps the doors open. Although sometimes players get pissed off , the box and the pit get pissed off, it is usually something very trivial.

Maybe I am getting too old and have lost the fire, but I just play to put in time so that comp balances will build up. So I play at whatever casino gives me the best bang for my buck or wherever Gail wants to play .

Hats off to those that can make a decent living off doing nothing but playing craps.

The key for the player is to play within the players bankroll and to quit playing when you are ahead.

[wild child]

There are just a few BASIC RULES pertaining to MONEY MANAGEMENT
.
Frequent consistent winning starts with limiting losses...
.
Be ever on the alert for opportunities. Then take a measured RISK...
.
Drunk,angry,disturbed,distracted,tired or a bubble off ---Choose to do something else THAT DAY.
.
There people who HOP ON OPPORTUNITY like an insect on a dog..
That is why they are despised,derided and called FLEAS..
.separate subject but they destroy a HAND.

With practiced and measured D I skill it may be possible to show up,play
and influence the numbers to favor your wagers.......at least temporarily and fleeting..
then return later or just move on to another opportunity...

Even as a hobbyist winning or at least losing less in a measure of some success

W C

[SHOOTITALL]

Well, being I had some free time, I started thinking on this: It just MAY be possible if you were playing at the best craps game in the U.S. ABQ has two of these games or at least they use to since I have not been to ABQ since RR passed the dice.
That game offers no HA on the buy 4/10 (I guess they collect vig on the others,<before or after I do not know>)
better prop odds and no HA on the field. Sooooooo, IF you could toss nothing but field numbers, or fours and tens, yep, maybe. I'll let MP and Heavy noodle on this one awhile.

[Mad Professor]

Well, I thought That I could Go "PRO", & make a living shooting dice! I was successful for about 4 months, but unfortunately because of my inability to sustain a Winning Toss, I am back in my Tow Truck, & making a Very comfortable living. The wife is happy, & Life & is back to normal. Craps as a Sole source of income? Forget it, You'd be better off finding a $15hr job. I don't think the best DI's in the world could sustain a winning toss, session after session! Heavy, Irish, RockNroller, & others are the "EXPERTS", but They also have Day Jobs. I Think that says it all!!

Hi Tabletop,

I am curious to know whether you think any of your choices you made during that 4-month "going pro" effort were negatively affected by:

i) How you handled your betting on random-rollers.

ii) Some of your 'unconventional' ideas in terms of defining and then optimally exploiting an advantaged toss.

iii) Your penchant for following streaks, trends, and hunches.

...and finally...

iv) Why, after four months, you were unable to sustain a winning toss?

Thanks,

MP

[Bankerdude80]

Until you have $2 million salted away (in retirement accounts, etc) that is throwing off $60-$80G's per year in investment income (conservative estimate) to meet living expenses, plus your craps bankroll, I would discourage any attempts to go "Pro" where "Pro" is your only means of income. There are too many cons than pros (pun intended). Keep in mind the time value of money and compounding. When devoting your efforts to a full time enterprise as your sole income source there are too many negatives to overcome:

1) Craps to begin with is a negative expectation game. So you're headed uphill right out of the gate.
2) You will need to meet housing and living expenses solely from your play.
3) Quarterly Estimated Tax Payments (FICA/SECA) to the TAXMAN [roughly 15.3% of self-employment income]
4) You need to win. (A consistent effort of minimizing losses and maximizing wins).
5) Potential family conflict
6) Future retirement put at risk (no 401k plus company match or other) It's all you baby!
7) Health Insurance costs
8) What if your arm or hand gets crushed? (Disability Insurance costs) (Sh*t happens).
9) Expand your footprint across multiple casinos so as to avoid/minimize any heat. (Transportation costs, etc).
10) Oh yeah, did I mention the TAXMAN ?

I probably missed a few things, but you get the general drift. I think if your craps game is decent and you profit each year, it pays to keep the game as a supplement to your current income (think multiple streams of income). I know we are all gamblers and it sounds enticing (the freedom and the ability to play a game you love anytime, etc), but think big picture and long term. If you decide to go this route, give it serious thought before you take the plunge.

[Americraps]

Question for Heavy, MP, and anyone else who might know. How many full time craps pros are out there?

[shunkaha]

Question for Heavy, MP, and anyone else who might know. How many full time craps pros are out there?

I personally knew 1 and possibly met another [not 100% sure], also I indirectly know of or should say knew of 1 or 2 others that did it as a full time or semi full time thing.

I only know figures from the one I personally knew, the others I could guess but that is all it would be since the others I only know of second hand so never seeing the toss, betting amounts, betting skills, etc... my best guess would be a WAG [Wild Ass Guess].

I tend to imagine there are more than those 3 or 4 since I never frequented any casinos in the Northern tier states or western/mid western states, that means unless they entered one of the roughly 45 casinos I've been to [some only 1x or 2x] I'd never see them or know about them. The other issue I can see is how do you define pro if the person is retired with a pension $250 here and there tax free adds up big time and might make them be at least semi-pro.

The bankroll to do it professionally would keep must people away if nothing else ever did [the toss would keep most at bay often as not if the bankroll didn't], the uncertainty of how much if anything would come home with them each day would be another huge factor. As Bankerdude said , it'd take having a couple of Mill squirrelled away making money to make pro DI [without a pension, etc] really approachable because sure as hell a bad swing would wipe out a low 5 figure bankroll and without money coming in regardless, the poor guy would starve.

[Mad Professor]

Well, MP, there were several variables that led to my demise.

The first, being "Craps burnout". You know, Irish said a long time ago, that If I was practicing 5- 6 hours a day, that I was probably doing something wrong! If only I had heeded his advice. I was over-doing my practice sessions, & Tossing "JUST FOR THE SAKE " of it. What a big Mistake.

My second Mistake was betting on Too many random Rollers. As Heavy has stated many times over: You have to be VERY selective when betting on the randies. My insatiable Quest for "ACTION" sent me to the sidelines.

My underhand forward spinning Lob Toss held steady, but I had a tendency to bet the profits off of my own shooting on the randies.

Bottom Line: Until I can get a grip on becoming an Advantage player, instead of an "Action Junkie", I'll just be another casino Sucker. It's easy to stay disciplined behind Your computer. Try having "Iron Clad" discipline CONTINUOUSLY while under fire, with your money on The Line. NOT an easy task!

I enjoyed 4 good months of Above Par Shooting, saw a lot of shows, treated My wife to shopping Sprees, Spa treatments, etc, but the bottom Line is that I gave back ALL of My winnings over that 4 month period. Stupid Me!!!

Some individuals WILL have Iron Clad Discipline, & a toss good enough to be Net Profitable. I'm just not there Yet!!! It's back to the working World for me. Who Knows, maybe Sometime down the road, I'll develop what It takes to be a consistent winner(discipline), but as of Now, I need to continue to develop my toss, & practice at a reasonable rate. 5-6 hours a day tossing Dice is INSANE!!! Talk about OVERKILL!!!!
Incidentally, I won't even discuss my latest atlantic City Excursion. Yeah, You guessed it. Another NightMare!!!!I'm Still licking my wounds. I can truthfully say that my Toss is still productive & continuously moving in the right direction, it's just my fu-----g Discipline & Betting Skills that are HIGHLY Suspect. I need a Hug!

Hi Tabletop,

The success-defeating obstacles that plagued your play, are pretty much the exact same things that others before you have reported as well. I appreciate your candor.

It's not easy...no one ever said it would be; but you were able to gain a wealth of experience that will stand you in good stead in the future.

Though I wrote this piece about 15-years ago; many of its principals and its main doctrine still hold true to this day.

The Toughest Way to Make An Easy Living


MP

[wild child]

Consistent Income to the gambler may be as elusive as it is to the Commissioned income to Salesperson.........
.
A sales pro once explained the lifestyle of a perceptual state of either chicken or feathers.
Roast poultry or chicken feather soup....
.
Neither gambling or sales seems by the it's very nature to show Swiss watch consistent CA$H FLOW .....
.
There may be $ PEAKS and valleys relative to cash $ flow
...
The representative selling earth moving equipment to the construction industry may
enjoy a MONSTER SALE once in 5 years...As such he would have the
need for a DRAW AGAINST COMMISSION(s) and a supportive employer...
...
For the gambler....may not be much out there in the way of DRAW AGAINST WINNINGS

Farmers may make it with one harvest a year...Tree farmers may need wait longer
.
So the very real world need for some type of financial underwriting
.
Perhaps the income averages out over some period of time weeks,months,annually...longer...

Just me saying

W C

[gargoil]

I think if you look at the big picture of what is a consistent income in Craps then you will get to the conclusion that it is almost impossible. However if you break it down to manageable parts then it becomes more possible. Here's what I mean.

Let's say for the sake of arguments you need $5000.00 a month to live comfortably and you set that as a goal of income each month at the craps table. This big number is far fetched for some folks. However, Let's say you intend to visit the casino twice a month and stay for 3 nights and play 10 sessions while you are there. All of a sudden the breakdown will be $2500.00 over three nights / 10 sessions. This means you have to win (and not lose any) $250.00 a session. This number is more achievable than $5000.00. And you should have a good enough bankroll to handle a losing session especially if you set a limit of a $100.00 loss means a losing session.

you can also breakdown a session as two hits then done (big wager for that) but again I am just being theoretical here. Some folks will tell you if you use the plan / strategy / method / whatever else there is out there then your income could be achieved within one swoop. But your bankroll could take a huge hit if you miss.

Anyway the point I am trying to make is that you have to think small and achieve small goals and then see for yourself if on the long wrong it is worth doing.
As someone else clearly states on this site at the end of their post... Just me saying

[heavy]

Consistent Income to the gambler may be as elusive as it is to the Commissioned income to Salesperson.

Back in the late seventies and early eighties I worked for an outfit as a corporate recruiter - straight commission with a minimum wage draw. For those of you unfamiliar with this - the company you work for pays you a monthly "draw" equivalent to forty hours a week at minimum wage. Back then it was about $600 a month. That "draw" is actually an advance against future commissions. If three months go by and you don't have any sales then there's a little counseling session that comes along to remind you that if you don't sell something in the next 30 days you're likely to find yourself unemployed. So I was plugging along for four months - $2400 in the hole - when I had multiple deals come together in the same month. In total, I made in excess of $60K in commissions that month. Of course, I had worked everyone I had in the pipeline at that point so I had to "start over" with nothing and build more business, which of course is how commission sales works. As I recall, for the next six months I didn't do squat.

If you're going to try to make a "living" wage at craps - say $5000 a month or so - then you're going to need a HUGE bankroll. How much? Well, you should have enough in your war chest to cover your expenses for the next couple of years - at the $5000 a month level we're talking $120K or so. That's money you can't touch. I'd say you'd need at lest another $500K in bankroll. Remember, you're not going to have any other money coming in from a day job or whatever, so the only way to replenish your bankroll is through winnings - not future income.

If I were trying to win at that level I'd be looking at playing no more than five sessions a week - twenty sessions a month. Gargoil did a good job of breaking it down from his perspective. $250 per session win goal. Very attainable. For years I sustained an average win of (a whopping) $37 per session playing at the red chip level. My average bet was rarely more than $110 inside with an ISR - usually it was $66 inside with an ISR. So if I wanted to make $370 per session all I would have needed to have done was bet bigger - say $1100 inside or $660 inside with an initial steep regression. Don't change anything else about my play other than the bet size.

The point brought up about casino burn-out is a major factor, though. That's one of the reasons I stopped doing seminars for a few years - awhile back. I've always said "if it's not fun it's time to run" and it wasn't fun anymore.

As has been said many times here - gambling is a tough way to make an easy living. In fact, there's nothing easy about it at all.