Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

MP, I need your advice... I think I'm at least even betting on the World when I roll. My problem is I'm not making "big" money... I need some advice on my opening wagers and my entire betting strategy. I'll buy in with $400-600 on a $3 or $5 table.

I'm a sucker; I'll bet the ATS for $6-11 depending on how I feel--either a 2-2-2 on RR's or a 3-5-3 on me or lately, a 2-6-2 on myself. Used to be I'd bet only 3-4-3, but as "often" as I've hit the ALL, I've never seemed to have the money apportioned "well". So I've been experimenting with smaller 'Tall' and 'Small' bets, and larger 'ALL' bets. Of course, I haven't hit the ALL since changing strategies; I've left the ALL dangling by one number at least 4x since the change. It wasn't fruitless though because I was able to lay against a 6 and 9 on separate occasions before I rolled the red. Monetarily, Laying the last point has net me roughly about like I'd bet a 2-2-2.

Coupled with the $6-$11 ATS bet, I'll bet a $10 World and a $5 or $10 PL bet. I set the dice for 1/5-1/5. (After the CO, I usually set for a 6/3-6/2.) My problem is I can't string 3 Horn numbers together. I've strung 7 World numbers together, but the 7 kills profits because I'm using the winning PL bet to fund the ATS. It's not uncommon at all for me to roll 3 World numbers, but almost always, one of them is the Red.

When the World pays, I always press it by $10. I should be makin' decent money on the World's appearance, but I can't figure a way past the ATS betting loss when the 7 comes during the Come Out. I've been thinking a lot about changing my strategy and playing "only for" World and ATS results. I was thinking maybe I should reduce the ATS to a 1-3-1 bet, and bet $25 World with a $25 PL bet. I HATE the idea of using so much money on an even bet, but as often as I double-pitch, I should face the notion that it might be the best play. However, I also can't figure out what my 'after-bets' should be... I'm thinking that on a first-winner World bet, I should press the World by $10 on the 3, $25 on the 11, and $50 on the first 1/12. That would net me enough to bet $25 as single odds on the PL and still break even with my World bets (when they win... the big 'IF'), having funded only the $25 PL bet. Pressing the World is just a vague notion to me in the $25 sphere... I haven't figured out how a 2nd consecutive World winner should pressed. Hell, I'm still figuring out that I should step with this strategy to the quieter tables... ain't never anyone at the $25 table at IP. I could play by myself until the high rollers come in.

As a gauge of my betting tolerance, I'll outline my current play-- I'll play $5 PL with 5x Odds, and Place $30 each on the inside numbers for two hits. I'll regress to $26/27 Across after two hits. I'm not uncomfortable with ~$129 at risk, but it's not real easy psychologically, either. I'm easily comfortable with $52/54 Across with $5 PL and $25 odds as an "opener" when I'm just testing the table and my throw. If I'm $75 ahead on a hand, I'll use some of it to increase the PL Odds, up to 10x (which is the table max). On a real hot streak, I've added $10 to the PL bet and bet $150 Odds (after regressing back from about $400 on the Box numbers to $26 Across). So I guess I'm willing to risk $50-90 comfortably "per roll" between the PL and the Box numbers....

If I wanna profit better from the Come Out while betting the ATS and the World, should I change my strategy and stop betting the Box numbers? What percentage of the Buy In should I allot for all CO play if I stop betting the box numbers? I think I'm spread too thin with my current strategies since I'm only buying in with $400-600, but I can't figure out what my best betting strategy should be. Give up the ATS? The different possibilities are makin' my head hurt.

Thanks, MP!

I acquired the bad habit (its bad because of the HA) of betting the World bet during the come-out cycle. On a $10 minimum table I will
start with $10 on the passline, $5 World, $1 Ace-Deuce. If I throw a seven, I collect $5 and press the World $5 and replace the
Ace-Deuce for $1. If I toss a 2,11,or 12, I press the World $5. I'll press up the seven by $5 each time only after l I've recouped my
initial $6 outlay. I continue this adventure until it ends. It can be quite profitable unless I am having difficulty throwing the horn
numbers. I have to watch that very closely.

Time for a report--it's not that I haven't been listening or reading...

I played alone early this morning at my 'second' casino; I was the only shooter. Started out with an end-heavy 4-2-4 ATS because I ran an 18-box numbers roll earlier at another casino on my initial hand there and only made $70 on my $2 All Tall. Felt like I'd gypped myself, so for the second casino, I started their morning 4-2-4. But I wasn't rolling very well, and lost every "ALL" bet I placed. Fortunately, I only bet the 4-2-4 twice, and kept a constant 2-2-2 for the other 4 or 5 or 6 times. Not much consolation for the loss, but at least the control in the bet is better.

Now to the meat... I reduced the ATS from a usual $10 bet to "half" because I decided to try MP's assymetrical Horn bet... with a revision. I throw too many double pitches, so my home evaluation led me astray... I bet the $6 Hi-Low, the $9 Trey, and the $5 Yo, but I included a $5 Red, making my bet a true $25 "World-like" distribution. I put out the $25 PL bet, too. That made me itch every time. In 40 minutes of play, I never rolled more than 5 box numbers in a hand. That is to say, I hit the All Small once, and never got any box number past $24 after starting out $26/27 Across--that's parlayed betting too, not 'up one unit' betting. That's pretty miserable. No PSO's though...

And the good news is, I stuck to MP's plan. For me, it took a lot of "faith". I lost the first CO "World"--6 is the point. Three rolls later, "6". I throw out another $25 for the Props. Nine. So far all I've done is 'accelerate' my losing at $25 a whack on the CO... Nine! Get paid $70 for my $25 PL and 30 Odds... my gods are smilin' on me. I've hit 4 box numbers and I've not yet covered my bets, but I'm close...

Again, I bet MP's Horn with an additional $5 Red. $25 PL $25 PL !?? . I'll cut to it... for the session, here's how that bet paid-- 3, point-- 3, point-- 2, point-- 3, 11, point-- with four 7's interspersed amongst those Prop payoffs. I was only able to get the Double-Up to pay off once, and unfortunately, the 11 was the repeater. Then, with that point (6), I set for the 6/3-6/2, and roll (no lie): 12, 3, 2, 11, 3, 8, Out. ONE stinkin' roll out of sync... but those are just numbers--they'd have never come up with my 1/5-1/5 CO set.

So, with minimal play, I ended up 'even'. Amazingly, without the CO "World" bets, I'd have been down almost $300. Like an idiot, I didn't count the losing number of "World" bets, but it would have probably amounted to about $150 of that total. Next time, I'll set up counters for the "World" bets.

(Related to the tipping thread I started, I tipped too much again. But I felt it was worth it. The new scheme really affected my betting strategy, and I kept forgetting 'things'; I figured that I didn't have a big enough buy-in or psyche to put up with my more common "$90 Inside 2-hit Regression" strategy, coupled with a $45 wager increase on the CO, $25 being a one-roll bet. I felt comfortable with a scheme intended to chase the Horn numbers and playing the boxes as the 'distraction' rather than the other way around during this initial excursion.)

Maybe I got extremely lucky to hit as many "payoffs" as I did (including points) to keep me afloat, but this portion is written to report on tipping--3 times the dealers stalled me--prompted me to either increase my Odds bet (from a $10 Odds on the 6 and 8 to at least $25, which I declined--my logic being that "full odds" only pays $1 over even money, and though it is pure odds at reduced "HA", there's already almost as much out there as a $90 Across-regression strategy jeopardizes for "two" rolls; though I did take at least $25 Odds on the 4/5/9/10). I was reminded twice that my ATS had fallen. I misspoke and said "$3 Ace-Deuce" and Stick said, "you mean '$9', right?". A new stick came in, gave me a look of puzzled slight-annoyance, and all three on the other side said, "6 HiLo, 9 A-D, and 5 YoRed", I doubled the bet those several times I'd gotten paid, and one dealer would chant, 12 HiLo 18 A-D, 10 YoRed. Three times they told me, 'you gotta hit the back wall with both dice, this ain't the "Other Casino", but I was paid after those warnings for one 3 and an 11 on short rolls, along with several box numbers and at least one point. The 11 was a repeater; nothing was ever said again about the short rolls. Which is why I'll not name the casino where I was playing.

I hit the $2 All Small and gave $20 for the tip box, $25 after I hit the repeater 11 on the "world"; and when I quit, I'd rough-guessed myself at shy $50 from being even. Turns out I was up $19. I never rolled a hand that hit more than 5 box numbers. This table's a lot less bouncy than the earlier table this morning. I short-rolled about 40% of the rolls here, and not hardly a peep. I gave'm the $19 and added $25. As little protest as I got for short-rolling the CO's I felt fortunate not to have heard a LOT more heat. I gotta get better at estimating "hundreds" in a laying roll of reds. Mebbe I should mark my finger (for a ruler) 'cause it's sure I can't eyeball it like a dealer can. Sooo... I wish I'd tracked better. I wonder how the $90 Across 2-hit regression and this new CO would have done... probably not nearly as well since I was shooting the point like a 4-roll-and-out RR.

Thanks, MP!

Dork,
Just curious, if you are hitting more 3s than 11s, combined with 2s & 12s, then not making the points; wouldn't you be better off on the Don't Pass, vice the Pass? Sure you're bucking the devil on the come out, but you have that already covered with the $5 Red - perhaps a $7 Red instead?

Also, I used to play some GWAG, but found I preferred ATS, as for me it seemed like conflicting strategies, especially since I've settled on playing my come-out set & point set to be the same v-3 variant with the outlook that the come-out is a "warmup" for me.

MP - I still have your GWAG writings, I think I've missed your ATS writings, care to share a link?

Thanks, D.N8r

DarthNater wrote:Dork,
Just curious, if you are hitting more 3s than 11s, combined with 2s & 12s, then not making the points; wouldn't you be better off on the Don't Pass, vice the Pass? Sure you're bucking the devil on the come out, but you have that already covered with the $5 Red - perhaps a $7 Red instead?

...

I haven't tracked my actual GWAG numbers enough to figure out if I should favor the DP. Right off the cuff without any thought whatsoever, I'd say that I'm on the PL mainly because (right now as I experiment with this) I'm looking to make my point and tally up lots of (box) numbers. I thought I'd try the GWAG as an added payoff strategy while simultaneously attempting to fill out the ends of the ATS. This last session was pretty mediocre; I was able to survive financially, but the dice results were about as poor as I've experienced without a record number of PSO/PPSO's. But...

You make a very good point about playing the Don'ts--MP wrote another article... I can't remember the title or topic but it offered a pointed 'contrarian' thought--that when the 7 comes, the Don't play counts his winnings by ADDING his bets to the payoff, where the PL bettor subtracts ALL his bets from the accumulated payoffs. I've wondering about that, too... thinkin' to use an end-heavy <$7 ATS as a cheap hedge for when I can't hit a 7. In that case, I'd bet a $25 DP with $30-50 odds and the $7 Red as you say, but I haven't tried it or gamed it at home. As a wannabe DI, the 7 should appear more than randomly if I have any control, so...