The All, Small or Tall Bet

[heavy]

We first saw the All, Small or Tall (or maybe it's All, Tall or Small) layout in Las Vegas at Sam's Town. Since then it's made it into other Vegas casinos - NYNY, Wynn, Encore, Treasure Island - and has spread into some of the regional markets as well. The concept of the All, Tall or Small bet is fairly straight forward. You can bet that the shooter will roll every number on the dice before the seven shows (the ALL), that he'll roll all of the numbers lower than seven before the seven shows (2, 3, 4, 5, 6), or all of the numbers larger than seven before the seven shows (8, 9, 10, 11, 12).

The All, Small, or Tall bets are made at the beginning of the shooter's hand - when he first gets the dice. You can bet any or all three of the bets. There are a lot of ways to play it. I've see guys toss out $5 and get $2 each on the Small and Tall and $1 on the All. I've also seen it go the other way, a buck each on the Small and Tall and $3 on the All. Or you could just toss out $3 and bet all three for a buck each. You can put me in that category. I consider it a "recreational" bet - in the same category as Fire Bets, Harways, Horns and Hop Bets. I also like to use the All, Tall, and Small as dealer toke bets. Yeah, dealers would rather have a hand-in. But I'd rather have them in the game.

The Small and Tall bets pay $35 to 1 on the layouts I've seen.

The ALL pays $175 to 1.

WOW

If you want to get into the odds of scoring on any of these bets I'll simply refer you to the wizard of odds website. http://wizardofodds.com/craps/appendix4.html#smalltall

I will tell you that I've hit the ALL bet twice. On a long hand it can happen. The last time I hit it I tossed FOREVER trying to throw aces. Finally hit it on a Come Out roll, winning both the ALL and the World High-Low combo I often play on the come out. Yeah, that was $230 minus my $10 Pass Line bet.

The idea I've seen bandied about on other websites revolves around a strategy we often use when going for the sixth number in the Fire Bet - laying against the point to guarantee a win. Can this idea be profitably applied to the All, Small or Tall as well? The answer is - maybe.

Let's say you're shooting for the ten to complete the bet. If you make the ten you'll win $175 plus your pass line bet and odds. But who's to say you have to shoot from the right side? Why not play $25 on the DP and lay $50 to guarantee yourself $50 if you seven out or net $100 if you make the point? Seems like a logical approach to me.

On another tack - if your remaining point is the two three, eleven, or twelve - will the casino book a "No Twelve" bet? I don't think so. But even if they did you'd bet betting something like $39 to win $1 (or whever they put the breakage). Not a logical play in my book.

Sooooo, that gets us down to the point where I'd like some participation from you guys. How many of you have played the All, Small or Tall bet? Where did you play it? What was your approach to the bet. Did you have any success at it?

I know Irish has hit it because he and about have of the class showed up at the dealer school in Vegas something like an hour and a half late because he had the dice and was not giving them back.

Stories?

Let's hear 'em.

h

[Riggs]

The killer on this bet is that if you make a point and throw a 7 on a come out roll while your hand is continuing, you have to start over :-{

That totally turned me off of it.

[Maddog]

I think of this bet the same way Heavy mentioned; as a recreational bet. It's a fun bet to win, and as a DI we improve our odds of connecting it, but it is still a LOOOONG shot type of thing even with some dice influence.

When I was playing this with Irishsetter (the session Heavy mentioned), I was playing $5 ($2 on Small, $2 on Tall, and $1 on All), and I was playing $25 on the 4-Rolls-No-Seven. The 4RNS bet paid off more frequently.

Haven't played this for awhile. The last several times I've headed over to Sam's Town the table has been populated with a bunch of old-timer curmudgeons and I simply turn around and walk back out the door. Head down to the Cannery and get my kicks playing the Fire-bet instead. Heh heh.

[rollinbones]

Head down to the Cannery and get my kicks playing the Fire-bet instead. Heh heh.

ahh the Fire Bet. They only added it in Caesar's AC about two months ago.

New to me, so I forget to always throw the $1 at it. Inevitably, I proceed to hit 5 points. No one on the table had it either! Worse, the crew coudn't find the #5 marker. There was at least a 5 minute delay while they scurried around looking for it. WTF!
I would have really been pissed had I bet it.

Of course, I sevened out right after the delay

[heavy]

The Fire bet is certainly a great dealer toke bet IMHO. I've mentioned here before that on one Vegas weekend last year I hit four or five of the numbers on the Fire bet five different times over the course of the weekend. I've never managed to even ESTABLISH the sixth number on the Fire bet - much less make it. I remember one occasion where I established the six as the point four times during a hand where I only needed one more point (I think it was the nine) to hit the full pay out.

Meanwhile, back on the All, Small or Tall - any more war stories or approaches to the wager?

[wudged]

Why not play $25 on the DP and lay $50 to guarantee yourself $50 if you seven out or net $100 if you make the point? Seems like a logical approach to me.

This makes you more money than simply laying the 10 for say, $90 ($50 for 7 /$100 net for tall, vs $43 for 7 / $85 net for tall) but this is assuming you know you are going to throw the 10 on the come out to set up the DP.

On another tack - if your remaining point is the two three, eleven, or twelve - will the casino book a "No Twelve" bet? I don't think so. But even if they did you'd bet betting something like $39 to win $1 (or whever they put the breakage). Not a logical play in my book.

I've never seen any place do this except in crapless. I seem to throw a lot of 7's using straight sixes, but I would use that (or a variation of, 6/5 - 5/6) to try for the missing ATS, meanwhile laying the 5 or 9 for 120 (or both for 60 each) Hitting the missing number from ATS wins you the $175 and you can (hopefully) take down both lays. Seven will give you $80 on the lays. Unfortunately, since the missing number from ATS doesn't correspond to the 5/9, there isn't any guaranteed money here and you may end up shooting yourself off the lay and then 7 out.

Worse, the crew coudn't find the #5 marker. There was at least a 5 minute delay while they scurried around looking for it. WTF!

I've not played in AC since the fire bet has been introduced, but every other place where I've seen 5 points hit, the dealers must stand around waiting for approval from a floor manager, and they don't usually keep the 5 and 6 point markers on the table.

[Americraps]

I've been close to winning the all before, but never made it. Usually I need a 2 or twelve. Once I just needed to throw a six. I never thought of laying the number, its a no brainer if its a box number and you have at least $1 on the all.

[heavy]

The problem with "no brainers" is that when it comes to live play - most of us don't have one. We just get caught up in the heat of the moment and everything else goes out the window.

[wild child]

.
There are 2 or 3 Mississippi Gulf Coast casinos that currently offer the All Tall Small bet.

The 34 X ODDS pay offs are way more frequent than the 175 X ODDS.
However they do happen enough that is steady action on those bets.

Hope we see some reports of the group hitting multiple wins in March.

[Golfer]

I like the ATS more than the Fire, but have hit the Fire more. Americraps won me the T or S a month or two ago.

The closest I cam to a big score was in Michigan at 4 winds. Just needed a 12. The question is when you get down to 1 number for the big score do you change your set to try and snipe????????

If looking for a 2 or 12 do you go to the straight 6's or crossed 6's, even if that is not the set that got you there?

Hey Riggs, mild winter huh? For the ATS comeouts play with different bets hopping the 7 or just a big red to hedge the comeout 7. Yeah it is expensive but if you are shooting well it seems worth the small dilution of return.

Golfer

[Mad Professor]

Little Joe raises a good point.

I don’t know if you folks are familiar with my concept of Toke-Branding; but a growing number of D-I’s have found that it markedly improves the player-rating and win-tolerance mileage of their dealer-tips.

If you scroll down to the first response in the following “How to Improve Your Tipping-Mileage” thread; you'll see the first of several entries about Toke-BRANDING.


MP

[dork]

I've been going to Biloxi IP early in the morning every coupla weeks. I'll play $3-1-3 for me and 1-1-1 for the dealers on the Bonus Craps box (All Tall, ALL, and All Small). I've hit one of the 35-for-1 about once (or even twic) every trip. I'll buy in with ~$700, walk off with +$150 to $200 or -$150 for the day. Those are my limits, and usually I quit when there are 4 other shooters. I've missed the ALL by one number 3 times in the last 5 trips.

I got dragged to IP during the afternoon hours (when I hate the crowds there), by my wife, who wanted to play the slots and have dinner. Okay. I'll grind. Pure Graftstein Don'ts... $10 no odds, 3 bets max. My turn comes to shoot. I'm at the end of the table; I never shoot from the end--I shoot from SR1 or not at all... for some reason, I feel really lucky on a table where my grind has kept me even through 9 other shooters. I bet 4-2-4 with 2-1-2 for the dealers. I dunno what came over me.

In the first eight rolls, I hit the All Tall and the 5 and the 2 (leaving three numbers to make on the ALL and All Small side); it happened so quickly that the box man had to stop play and announce it--so we'd get paid. Everyone was stunned; we didn't realize I only rolled one repeater. Five rolls later, I'd hit the 6 and 3 and repeated the 8 and 9 twice. All that's left is the '4'. Mind you, I throw underhand from SR1; that's all I throw--UH. Here, I'm throwing with the same grip, but backhand, with LOTS of spin--the target is 4 to 6" from the edge, like I've seen ya'll do in the Feb 2013 class I attended. Dead cat bounce like I can't believe, and with my favorite set, x6's.

I obviously gotta hit the 4 now; I bet $10 on the hard four. I changed the set from crossed 6s to 5/4-5/6. But I rolled a 2, three 3s, and a five (to make my point for a second time). Wish I'da had a crap check or horn bet down. Black guy on the other side of the table was hollering, "look out... he's tryin'... oh, Lord, he's tryin... 2's and 3's?? He gonna hit. Hop the hard 4 fo' $20." But he was one roll early... that roll was the 5; Arggghhh... $600, almost; sooo close. It was on the next roll, the come-out roll, though, that I rolled that hard four. The table came alive with hoopin' and hollerin'. I lasted about 3 more rolls; an incredible run. Nineteen rolls paid $700 for my $20 sucker bets.

Don't I wish they were all like that...

Stranger than fiction--with the 4 outstanding, I felt the "shadow" of a hedge--fortunately, it was the '4' I needed. Guaranteed "win" or not, I hate laying the 4 or 10, and that was the deciding factor on why I didn't lay insurance on the 4. I had to bet so much on the 4 to salvage part of the possible $560 payoff ($4-All Small, $2-ALL and $10-hard 4), that it just wasn't worth laying the bet. Lay $500 to guarantee $250, when the payoff is only double (and "equal" to my $500 'risk')? I don't think so. At least, that's my logic--was it faulty?

But at least my time on this board taught me something; I colored up as soon as I seven'd out.



ps.. what's "toke-branding"? The link is dead.

[Mad Professor]

what's "toke-branding"?

“BRAND” your tokes to get improved tolerance-mileage

This is an unconventional idea, but one that I think has a tremendous amount of merit.

I’ll start with a question.

What do you SAY when you toke?

I’m serious, let’s say that you do a ‘hand-in’ toke after you have a good roll; exactly what do you say when you toss it in?

If it’s along the lines of, “This is for the crew” or something like that, you may be missing an opportunity to make YOUR toke more memorable than anyone else’s…even if your tokes are usually smaller than everyone else's.

Putting your own personal ‘brand’ on your tokes will have the effect of substantially improving your toss-tolerance and win-tolerance mileage.

Let me give you a couple of examples of what I mean, when you toss in a toke:

“Bobby, stuff some fresh cabbage into that coleslaw shredder”

Now on the face of it, that sounds sort of ridiculous doesn’t it; but if you say it EVERY time you toss in a toke to the box-person, YOUR toke will have much higher memory-recall with the dealers than any others who simply toss it in with a weak ”For the boys” comment.

Say it every time you toss in a toke, and before long even the crew will be repeating it. It not only adds a slight element of fun; but it also re-punctuates the fact that you are a good and steady tipper.

Another example (which always includes the first name of the box-person you are tossing it to):

“Jennifer, add some jingle to that toke jar”

Again, it sounds silly at first (just like much of the other jargon from this game like, Big Red, Little Joe, Acey-Duecy, Horn-Hi-Midnight, World, Yo, Come, etc.); but if you use a particular phrase to “brand” your tokes, you’ll be surprised at how quickly it catches on.

Once you establish a toke-brand phrase for yourself; you can make all sorts of variations on the same theme.

For example:

“Let’s make that toke-jar jingle like today is Christmas”

“Make that toke-jar jingle like Santa is in town”

The idea is to bring memorability to your tokes, and to increase your stock-value with the crew. You don’t have to increase the VALUE of your tokes, or even the frequency of your tokes.

Instead, “branding” your tokes with a catchy phrase has the effect of making your tokes more memorable (and because of that, it will even seem to them that you toke much more often than most other players do); but it will also act to occasionally encourage other players at the table to toss in a toke too just so they can say the same tag-line or something similar to it too.

Make your toke tag-line something you are comfortable with.

You could refer to the toke-box as the “Beer & Whisky Fund” or you could call it the “Diapers & Formula Fund” or the “Milk & Bread Fund” or the “Party Pot”; it doesn’t matter how you brand it (as long as it isn’t too offensive); what matters is that you use a portion of that tag-line every time you send in a toke.

You can refer to the toke itself by something memorable like we did above with ‘cabbage’; but it can be anything…moolah, marigolds or macaroni (ie, “Let’s throw some macaroni in the toke-pot so the dealers can eat tonight.”)

You can use animal names…anything from rhino’s to roadkill (ie, “Throw another varmit into the cage”)…anything that will be slightly humorous and eminently memorable.

Again, use variations around the same theme once you have established your brand (ie, “Looky here, another varmit caught…toss this one into the cage with all the others”, etc.)

Before long, your TOKES are what will make you memorable, and your TOSS will be less so…and after all that’s what this exercise is REALLY all about.

Comments or questions?


MP

[vegasfan2010]

Thanks for bring this idea back.
Some very good ones MP.

[dork]

what's "toke-branding"?

“BRAND” your tokes to get improved tolerance-mileage

This is an unconventional idea, but one that I think has a tremendous amount of merit.

I’ll start with a question.

What do you SAY when you toke?

I’m serious, let’s say that you do a ‘hand-in’ toke after you have a good roll; exactly what do you say when you toss it in?

If it’s along the lines of, “This is for the crew” or something like that, you may be missing an opportunity to make YOUR toke more memorable than anyone else’s…even if your tokes are usually smaller than everyone else's. ...

MP

Hmmm. I guess I did it without realizin'... the day guys don't hardly know me at IP; I only play there very rarely during 9-5pm. But a couple morning guys know me; the box knows me from a different casino (and introduces me to the rest of the crew), as does one of the dealers. They know I tip pretty good and regular. I throw in with "you and me piggyback" or sometimes I'll throw prop bets, and if it isn't clear and they ask me, I'll say, "if I'm in the middle, so are you".

Mebbe that 2-1-2 for the dealers will etch me in their memories... they recognized me 2 hours later when I walked by the table, so that's good.

[Alohajonny]

The killer on this bet is that if you make a point and throw a 7 on a come out roll while your hand is continuing, you have to start over :-{

That totally turned me off of it.

We played at the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas this past weekend and they stopped taking the ATS down on a come out seven.

[wudged]

Do they mark any other number that is hit on the come out roll?

[Mad Professor]

How effective is “toke-BRANDING”?

Boxman: “Okay folks, everyone at this end of the table has to take one step to their right to re-open a spot beside the stickman for a returning player. Thank you.”

Player currently occupying SR-1: “I’ve been here since the table opened three hours ago; how can he be returning when he hasn’t even been here yet today?”

Boxman: “That spot is semi-permanently reserved for him, sir, so we appreciate your cooperation, just take one step to your right…we’ve already shifted all of your Place-bets to your new betting-spot. Thanks!”

Player formerly occupying SR-1: “Hmmmrrph!”

Boxman: “Welcome back to the table, Mr. __ (first letter of last name); your spot is ready for you…do you want any action on this roll?”

“Branding” your tokes (see previous post on this subject above) adds value to every toke that you make (especially toke hand-ins as opposed to toke-bets); because they attach player-identity to your tokes as opposed to just their face monetary-value.

Let me explain.

A plain-jane winning toke is mostly remembered by the dealers for its win-value (if any); while the player’s identity (the player making the toke) is only remembered on a secondary basis.

If you brand your tokes by using the same (or closely related) memorable tag-line everytime that one of your tokes gets tossed into the dealer’s toke-box; then the dealers will more closely identify YOU with tokes that actually make it into the box.

In that way, toke-BRANDING becomes a very STRONG self-perpetuating positive-reinforcement tool in your high toss-lenience, high win-tolerance toolbox.



MP

[Alohajonny]

Do they mark any other number that is hit on the come out roll?

At every ATS table I've played at they do...

[wudged]

Yes, but they also take down bets on a come out 7. I was asking specifically about Golden Nugget since you said they were not.

If they were not marking other numbers on a come out roll, then it wouldn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Since they are, it will move the edge a little bit more toward the player. I'm sure it's nowhere near enough to make it +EV, however.