Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

If you have not seen the ATS bet it is relatively new. There are actually three separate bets. You can bet that the Small numbers, 2 through 6, will come before any 7 or the Tall numbers, 8 through 12 will come before any 7 or All numbers, both the Small and the Tall will come before any 7.

As a general rule I don’t play the ATS or anything in the middle. You have to be very good at DI to overcome the house percentage on those bets. For instance the breakeven SRR for the Hardways is 1:7 and I am not there, at least not on a consistent basis.

I do play occasionally with a friend that does like to play the ATS but my setting pattern is to set for 7, No 4, No 10 on the Comeout this presents a conflict. No problem on the first Comeout but after I go through a point cycle there will be ATS numbers that I have hit and if I roll a 7 on the subsequent Comeout it would knock off those accumulated numbers.

I enjoy rolling a 7 or two on the Comeout. It is good practice and gives me some additional confidence for the next Point Cycle and a few extra chips as well.

In the spirit of Team play I did some thinking. How can I preserve the accumulated ATS numbers on subsequent Comeouts? The most difficult to get and therefore most often needed numbers are 2 and 12 followed by the 3 ad 11. They are not usual products of the Hardways set as the 1’s and 6’s are on the ends of the dice and if I am rolling well they are not going to come up. I could use a Craps set on the Comeout but that would knock off the Pass Line bet on a 2, 3 or 12. The 11 would be ok but that group is four to two to the negative so not a good plan.

I am thinking that a Field bet either half as much as or equal to the Pass line bet would improve things. A 3 would result in a push, lose the Pass Line and win even money on the Field. 11 would win both the Field and the Pass Line and a 2 or 12 would lose the Pass Line and win either double or triple depending on the number and the casino payout. The Field bet would lose on 5, 6, 7, and 8. I would normally avoid Field bets in general and especially if the payout for both the 2 and 12 is double. If neither pays triple the house percentage goes from 2.8% (no TOO bad) to 5.6%.

I am looking for analysis, comments, suggestions and especially knowledgeable input on the best dice set to use to produce 2 and 12. I am thinking 1-1, 2-2.

Thanks,

DONaTello

If I am playing the ATS I will usually use a crossed 6s set for the come-out. If I'm straight out I'll invariably use crossed 6s all the time these days.

I'm not sure that hedging with a field bet is doing anything other than costing you money. In fact I'd go so far as to say you should embrace a craps number on a come-out if you are betting ATS. To my mind I don't mind at all losing a couple of come-outs to a 2,3 or 12 as they are such a good start to the bet.

If my ATS is starting to get into good shape I'll happily lay the last one or two numbers (if I can) and I may also do a larger passline bet as some kind of hedge if I make a point and things are looking good on ATS numbers.

I typically do not change my set once I get past the initial come-out and point establishment when playing the ATS game. If I roll the dice long enough - all the numbers will eventually roll. If not - they won't. As soon as you go jacking with your set trying to out-think the the game you've shifted into the analytical side of your brain instead of the creative mode. The creative side is where good rolls happen. The analytical side provides the distractions that takes you out of the zone. Like trying to change your set to bring in the ATS.

heavy wrote: The creative side is where good rolls happen. The analytical side provides the distractions that takes you out of the zone. Like trying to change your set to bring in the ATS.

I agree 100%. If you don't know what it feels like to be "in the zone" the mental side of your game still needs some serious practice. When I'm able to get "in the zone" I'm oblivious to everything except the dice and the one dealer I have to interact with. A drink server or a friend or a new player can come around and if they don't physically touch me or put chips in my landing zone, I never even know they're there.

The past month I have been in a slump and unable to get "in the zone". Even so, I'm still in the green as far as gambling earnings for the year. One of the things my better half and I discussed when we decided to move our play out of the home region was the fact that we're in the process of buying more farmland and "sweating the money" is probably affecting my game subconsciously. That is why we planned our next trip in November instead of sooner. Both land deals will be closed by then and I'll know my gambling bankroll is a gambling bankroll and not a backup plan for a land down payment.

heavy wrote:I typically do not change my set once I get past the initial come-out and point establishment when playing the ATS game. If I roll the dice long enough - all the numbers will eventually roll. If not - they won't. As soon as you go jacking with your set trying to out-think the the game you've shifted into the analytical side of your brain instead of the creative mode. The creative side is where good rolls happen. The analytical side provides the distractions that takes you out of the zone. Like trying to change your set to bring in the ATS.

On the initial Come Out and on subsequent Come Outs I would normally shoot for 7's until I have made 3 points. The reason I say after 3 or so points is that I will sometimes start making Come bets after I get into a groove.

I would also normally modify my set during a point cycle by inverting it depending on the point being Low, 4, 5, or 6 or High, 8, 9 or 10. With a 2-2, 3-3 I tend to produce high numbers and with a 5-5, 4-4, low numbers. One of these days I will start working on other point cycle sets but for now it is Hardways as they are still working for me.

The other day I did, as you stated, make the Craps numbers while shooting for Point numbers and did end up making the ATS. After making a point I would then use a 1-1, 2-2 or straight 6's and a Field bet on the subsequent Come Out.

Because of the right brain/left brain phenomenon you mention I do have a rather well established betting strategy so that little to no thinking is required while I am shooting. I usually shoot by myself and don't have a shooting partner to bet on when I am not shooting so I either bet on myself or have only Randies to bet on. As of now I don't bet the ATS when I am alone as the house advantage is over 7%, only when my friend who likes the ATS is in town and I try to be a good team player.

I Place the 6 and 8 if they are not the point and one unit Odds. Increase the Odds bet by one unit for each point I have made. After one hit on the 6 and 8, press them by one unit for each subsequent hit. After I get the 6 and or 8 to $24 I press both one unit for each subsequent hit on either. That takes more money off the table than is used for the press.

As long as I am getting 6's and 8's I keep with that. I rarely place the 5 and/or 9 because the house percentage is 5%. If I am hitting more outside than inside numbers, after I have made 3 points and if I am getting good repeats on certain outside numbers, I sometimes make some Come bets but not usually.

I have been developing this betting strategy slowly as my skill improves. I was starting to have some decent sessions but wasn't making any money because I was betting too conservatively.

I still seek, after I have made the first point, never to have more money on the table than I have already won on that hand. If I did well on a previous hand, the money won is banked and going home with me. I only play $5 tables so that my opening bets are limited to $16 ( 6 or 8 point) to $23 (5 or 9 point) but if I have been doing well on previous turns on that session I may open with $12 on the 6 and 8 but still $5 on the Pass and Odds for the first point if it is an outside number.

Occasionally I run up on an advantage shooter as I did Monday. He made me 40% on my initial buy in in one turn. The next turn he had let someone in between himself and the stick and was landing short and didn't last very long. Why do people do that? If I can't get 'my' spot, I go to another table or another casino until I find a spot I like.

I would no more shoot from a spot I am not comfortable with than I would play golf left handed because only left handed clubs were available. LOL

So even though I hit the ATS the other day, I am still not convinced of the strategy. I consider it to be in the exploratory/development stage and welcome input.

I find the ATS an interesting distraction and little more. When I'm the shooter - or when another DI I'm acquainted with has the dice - I'll toss $5 our and bet 2-1-2. On shooters I've qualified on a previous hand I'll bet 1-1-1. As far as the rest of them are concerned - I keep my chips in the rack. The house edge is just too high.

Last week I saw a guy toss five sevens on the come out - and virtually the entire table came back up on the ATS after every seven. Ten players at $3 - $30 each. The table probably locked up $500 plus on that series alone. No wonder the casinos like that layout.

heavy wrote:I find the ATS an interesting distraction and little more. When I'm the shooter - or when another DI I'm acquainted with has the dice - I'll toss $5 our and bet 2-1-2. On shooters I've qualified on a previous hand I'll bet 1-1-1. As far as the rest of them are concerned - I keep my chips in the rack. The house edge is just too high.

Last week I saw a guy toss five sevens on the come out - and virtually the entire table came back up on the ATS after every seven. Ten players at $3 - $30 each. The table probably locked up $500 plus on that series alone. No wonder the casinos like that layout.

Agreed. The house percentage is 7.76% for the Small and Tall and 7.46% for the All. Well beyond my limit of 2%. LOL

There is a fellow DI that I shoot with when he is in Vegas and I am as of yet unable to dissuade him from playing the ATS. In the spirit of Team Play I was looking for a way to help him out without paying the double penalty of both forgoing hitting natural winners on the Come Out to hitting Craps losers. Not only not winning but intentionally losing? Yikes.

I suppose setting for Box Numbers on Come Outs would avoid the intentional losers but Come Outs with a hedge bet on the Field presents an opportunity not otherwise present to cover the Craps numbers. A Field bet with either the 2 or 12 paying triple is a 2.8% house advantage, slightly over my threshold but I do sometimes take it on. There is a 2.77% probability of hitting a Box Number that pays on the Field (4, 9,10) which is almost equal to the House percentage.