Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

This doesn’t seem like the right category but neither did any other so I stuck it here. Heavy, if you have a better place for it please let me know.

In the spring I ordered a practice box from Accucraps. I didn’t have access to any woodworking equipment and wanted something ready to go. It is nicely made and of good quality but I never liked the bounce. It is quite resilient. Not like the tables at MGM or Mandalay which have rubber underlayment but a sort of ‘hard’ bouncy, more like the tables at NYNY but not quite.

Jeff at Accucraps was very patient in helping me figure it out. At first I thought there was nothing under the felt so I pealed it back a bit and found that there was flannel under the felt so that was not it. After thinking about it for a long time I realized that the wood used was solid rather than plywood and was harder and more resilient than plywood which was causing the extra bounce.

I mulled this around for a month or more. I classify the tables in Vegas into three categories. Bouncy like MGM and Mandalay which have rubber underlayment which are probably 10% or less of the tables in Vegas. Hard like NYNY and Texas Station and some of the other Station casinos which account for maybe another 10 to 20% and medium like Bally’s, Golden Nugget and others which are the majority of tables in Vegas.

As I was rolling this around in my head I began paying closer attention to the characteristics of the tables I was playing and could start to see further distinctions, mostly in the medium tables but even in the hard tables. For instance there is hard like Texas Station which seems to be hard more like the practice box I have and NYNY which seems to be hard like maybe slate.

Where am I going with this? I have found that different tables respond differently to the same throw and that sometimes it can be advantageous to modify my delivery somewhat to cause the dice to have the least amount of action after they hit the table.

The exceptions are the tables with rubber underlayment. I simply do not play them. If there is a technique to tame them I have not found it and fortunately there are not many of them so I don’t worry about it.

I used to play golf at a very high level, 4 to 5 handicap if you are familiar with golf so I use a lot of golf analogies. If the greens are soft and holding you can hit close under the pin with medium back spin and get it close. If the greens are hard you need to figure on the ball rolling out a bit.

How to get practice for different bounce? How to develop a throwing technique for different tables? Having a half dozen Craps tables in the house would be nice but not terribly practical. Even having that many practice rigs would be a problem. What if I could change out the bottom? Nice!!
I came up with an idea for a modular practice rig held together with pipe clamps. The back with rubber diamonds and the sides are reused and the bottom is changed out to simulate different tables.

At this point I am asking for input from the Forum members. Please give me your specific formulas for the wood (or whatever material you use for the base, I have heard of Sheetrock . How thick is it? What type of plywood? Marine? Interior? Exterior? How thick? How many layers? What is the felt like and where did you get it? I don’t suppose color matters for the sake of color but it might help to distinguish between two different products from the same supplier. What do you use for underlayment? How heavy? How did you attach the underlayment and felt? Direct glue? No glue? Glue on the felt but not on the underlayment? What kind of glue? Spray on glue? Roll on? What brand? What type? If you have never looked at there are literally dozens of spray on adhesives.

What results do you get? Can you compare the results to a LV table?

If anyone has an 24” piece of rubber diamond laying around, please let me know. I can buy some if I don’t find any but if there is a piece laying around going to waste I can use it. That way I don't have to buy a 48" section to get 24" of rubber diamond.

Links to pix.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5W3_J ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5W3_J ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5W3_J ... sp=sharing

Regards,

Update,

The first iteration was the Accucraps box with the doweled ends turned out. That was for proof of concept and it worked. The pix are of that configuration.

Next I tried 1/2" Maple plywood with flannel and felt. Still too hard. Next I overlayed the Maple plywood with a piece of 5 mm Lauan with flannel and felt. Better but still too hard.

Next I tried the 5 mm Lauan with flannel and felt over a 1/2" thick piece of sheetrock. It is pretty good. It resembles some of the harder tables around Vegas. A little harder than say the Golden Nugget but not as hard as NYNY or the Station suburban casinos. I have not tried Main Street Station as for the present I am working only 12' tables.

Donatello, I think this is a great topic and one I am also very interested in as I mentioned Friday night. I purchased a 12'x18' shed to put my shooting and receiving station into. I am going to modify the closed end so that I can install a fixed receiving station with the ability of placing different tops with different landing characteristics. I have built three different receiving stations up to now and all have had different resilency. I wish there was a way to simply measure the durometer of various casino tables and then be able to duplicate. I have always used plywood in layers for the tops but of different thickness and usually two layers thick. My first table was covered with a thin layer of flannel sheet and cheap wool felt from a clothe store. Second station was two layers of cheap wool felt and my current station is high quality billaird cloth. The billiard felt is very hard so I typically lay a single layer of microfiber material I purchased from a game table manufactiurer that makes craps tables here in LA. Interesting in that it is plain white fabric and they inkjey print any craps layout you want onto that fabric. Played on the Station Casino on Flamingo and the Expressway this weekend and would like to be able to duplicate their table bounce as I think it is in the medium range and more commonly found.
I would recommend in your table analysis of the tables around LV that you also lay your hand flat on the table and see is the fabric moves. Amazing how some seem glued in place or stretch so tight that they seem to be glued while other are thick and move easily with a little pressure. I hope other will share their designs and trials so that we can all get a bettor understanding of table response.

Thanks for the kind words and your input.

I am working on developing a 'hardness scale' to be able to distinguish one table in Vegas from another. I am still pretty new at this and still learning to be able to distinguish one table from another and then to quantify the differences.

I will add your felt adherence factor to the list.

I have played at a number of the Station casinos, Red Rock, Green Valley, Palace, Sante Fe and Texas but not the Boulder. I have found all of the tables to be similar if not identical. They are uniformly hard in the manner of the "Hard #1" tables at NYNY. They are like one of my bases which is 5/8" Maple veneer plywood with flannel and felt.

Would you be able to send me a piece of the microfiber material? The standard base size I am using now is 18" X 24".

I may have a piece, I will look and get back with you. If not I can go into Glendale and buy somemore.

I would like to get a price from the guy in Glendale for barebones full size table, kind of like the plain GTC tables.

Thanks for the info. That explains what I was seeing at the Four Queens, bouncy with inconstant results.

The info on the Formica is great intel. That goes a long way toward explaining the differing results I have been seeing using wood products only. I will go find a piece of Formica and give it a try.

Thanks!!!!

DonaTello, the layout you mentioned from the Four Queens was it a two ply material or could it have been a white material with one side ink jet printed layout? The micro fiber/ blend material I purchased in Glendale from a table manufacturer was white without the printing. I am in the process of covering two 3/4" layers of composite board that a hard surface something like formica. i am going to use the flannel and a wool table game clothe or dense wool from my local fabric store. I'll let you know what I end up with.

I didn't get to see what to composition of the tables at the Four Queens is, just my observations of the bounce/rebound.

I should be able to get a bottom with a Formica surface built up this week. I have some flannel and felt for covering.

Please shoot some pix to show your build up.