Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Another simple question I'd like to hear your opinions on.

Years ago I always told people that "the secret to winning is to quit while you're ahead." Irish actually said something quite similar on another thread today, which surprised me because money management is one of those areas where we sometimes disagree. Nevertheless, I think there are moves you can make that will help you maintain your bankroll as the dice go around the table. After all, assuming you're playing with a positive expectation you should be betting MOST of your action on your own hands, right? So I'll toss out a couple of examples of money management moves and I'll let you guys chime in from there.

1. Set a specific amount of money to bet on each shooter. This is an old Grafstein trick. If there are 10 shooters and you have $200 to wager with then you can bet $20 per shooter. Get some white chips and set your bankroll up in your rack with four reds, one white, four reds, one white, etc. Whenever a new shooter gets the dice you make whatever bet you want to make. Perhaps $6 on the Don't Pass and $6 each on the six and eight. Take your extra $2 and bet a hard six/eight or something. All winnings from that hand go into your back rack. When the next shooter gets the dice you do it all over again.

2. Regress your bets. This is classic John Patrick. $12 each on the six and eight. One hit pays $14. Regress to $6 each on the six and eight guaranteeing a $2 win for the shooter.

3. One bet per shooter. Say a $15 Don't Pass. Get a point established and wait for a resolution. Do not replace a wager on a shooter who knocks you off. Wait for the next shooter instead.

So there you go. Three money management type moves. Let's hear yours. What tricks do you use and why do you think they work for you?

Qualify each shooter in some way before you put money down on them. 3 count/5 count/hit a box number/hit a repeater/make a point, whatever - qualification can be anything you want it to be. You will miss betting on plenty of short hands, then use a known play for a set amount on those that do qualify.

That's some good money management as you aren't just betting on everybody that touches the dice.

1. Have a dedicated Gambling Bankroll used for nothing but gambling
2. Use 4% of your bankroll as your session buy in , which is also the amount of money you are willing to risk for that session. (Loss Limit)
3. Only lose one bet per shooter (I only wager on the Dark Side ,for those that do not know).
4. Leave the table when ahead and also after a winning wager.

London Shooter says it for me. Chart (qualify table, shooter) and Dylan's dedicated bankroll. I use the dark side for maintenance, but sometimes just wait. It's all about opportunity. I admit I don't have any formalized money management behavior. I quit when I lose %50 of my buy in, but I will bet a lot more than 4% on a shooter that is bringing it. I use the PRPPP. Call it the "PERP WALK" Pull, regress, press, pull, press. The worst table for me is where five rolls are made before a 7out. If I get nailed, I stop and watch. I consider it a non-readable situation.

(1) play on an empty or near empty table so that most of the money is bet on our hands (husband and mine)

(2) stop loss on all play

(3) qualify any other shooter and only play one bet per shooter. It either wins and then MAYBE I will bet another one bet. If it loses I am done on that shooter no matter if one bet is right or dark side.

(4) husband and I will play pass and don't pass so we cancel each other out. Very boring but can be effective at times.

- "Take me down please." - Usually play at a $10 table. So it's $44 inside working on the come out unless I see the shooter setting the all sevens set (I don't bet the pass line unless I am shooting). Two hits and down. Then I wait three box numbers then jump in again with minimum six and eight place bets. Then alternately go up a unit then collect. This goes on until I hear a voice in my head that says "OFF!". Then I tell the dealer "Take me down please." .

-50% stop loss. Tough to do with limited ammo but it is what it is. Discipline is a key issue here.

-One hour of play. I get tired or lose focus after a while so I limit play time. Maybe an hour and a half at most depending on how the roll is going.

-Locking in wins. On a $10 table I lock up every $50. So I keep going until I go down to the last lock up unit.

-Sticking to tables with 5 or less people. More time with the dice to keep the mojo going specially if you are in the 'zone'. Maybe 6 people if there there are one or two more wannabe DIs like me.

I usually give any money I don't want to lose to my wife! Best management ever.

On a serious note, I have different stop points for different games. As I posted many times, I play way more poker than any other casino game. And most of the time when I play poker I don't consider myself gambling. Over the past 10 years of poker I am up well over 50k. So I'm willing to rebuy once or twice if needed if table conditions warrant it. I never rebuy at Craps. Usually if table conditions are cold, and I'm down 50%, I'm out. I've learned that if the toss ain't working that day, it's time to leave!

Tonybugs

Good stuff, guys. I had a friend years ago who wore a digital watch. He'd set an alarm to go off after 45 minutes of play. He'd hit "snoze" one time, which gave him another 10 minutes to wrap up his play. If the snooze alarm went off he left regardless of where he was in the game.

Anyone else have any favorite money management moves? I know salting away green or black chips is a favorite of many players. Anyone do that?

I salt away chips all the time now when appropriate, mainly to lockup profits or preserve buyin when I suspect I am nearing the end of a session. Trouser/shorts pockets or sometimes the wife's purse if she is in the game with me.

The wife's purse has a second level of money management protection in that it's much more tricky to get a chip back on the table that way than just reaching into your pocket.

The downside of course is that you are probably never seeing those chips again anyway

1. Until you've collected, chips remain in the rail. Never bet more money than you were willing to commit at the start of the roll.
2. Re-invest 1/3 of every win.

heavy wrote: 1. Set a specific amount of money to bet on each shooter. This is an old Grafstein trick. If there are 10 shooters and you have $200 to wager with then you can bet $20 per shooter. Get some white chips and set your bankroll up in your rack with four reds, one white, four reds, one white, etc. Whenever a new shooter gets the dice you make whatever bet you want to make. Perhaps $6 on the Don't Pass and $6 each on the six and eight. Take your extra $2 and bet a hard six/eight or something. All winnings from that hand go into your back rack. When the next shooter gets the dice you do it all over again.

I think I might try this next session at my local. Save the bigger bets for when I'm rolling, or if someone else gets on a heater.

So what if I have to play 15$ table on weekends...what should be my plan?

I like to place a pass. I work comeouts... that makes 51$ minimum exposure...how do you get away with a positive play overtime to overcome the 51$ a turn investment?

Go 30-30 and drop to 18?...still down 16 if only 1 hit, down 45 on comeout 7, 75 on pso.

I had a choppy run yesterday, got out at my limit drop, but so far having a bad run this week.

Looking for solutions...

I didnt have an ugly run all over but there is a flaw in my strategy for sure...but to my defense, I didn't see a long throw all week and lots of chop.

I'm not a fan of working on the come out unless I'm the shooter. But even then I tend to lean toward prop action on the come out looking for a larger score. I do not recommend that to anyone, though.

So I'm assuming that $51 number comes from a $15 Pass Line Bet and $18 each on the six and eight. You're looking for a way to hedge against a natural seven on the come out. My question would be - are you going to continue to hedge on every roll or are you just worried about the come out. Because the odds of the seven are one in six no matter when the dice are tossed. Anyway, let's assume you're just concerned about the Come Out. You will win $15 if you toss the seven on the come out - and lose $36. Net loss is $21. There are just a couple of ways to hedge that. My first throught would be to Lay against the four or ten for $41. If the seven shows you'll win net $19, so you reduced your exposure to the seven to just $2. Of course, there's always a chance you'll toss that four or ten and knock off a $41 Lay bet. That sucks. You can get a partial hedge against that happening by betting $3 on the hard four or ten - whichever you are laying. But therein lies the problem with hedge betting. You ultimately end up hedging your hedges. Your BEST bet on the Come Out is to forget all of those hedges and just throw an inside number.

Once you have your point number established playing $30 each on the six and eight, then regressing to $18 each is a strong play.

Thought I'd add this link to my article on how to handle $15 games for you, DanF. Hopefully this will help you:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=295

They are great tips heavy, tho I need your input on this:

Start low and powerpress or start high and regress?

What is the least expected loss overtime?

Lets say 18-18 6-8 press to 30 each and collect twice for 70$ paid on 39 invested.

Or go 42-42 and regress to 18-18 for 49 paid risk 84 on one hit?

I had the first one work out a lot but the high bet I keep being bad lucked lol.

In all these scenarios it seems we are under the assumption that we have to make money on the other shooters.

Against random-rollers we can not in the long run. So why waste your money on them. If we bet on other shooters we now not only have to shoot well enough to overcome the HA during our hand but the total HA of the rest of the table.

I hold off on all the other shooters except if there are other DI, I'll even bet on a rhythm roller. If there are none, I'll see if I can get away with betting on no one, which I and others have, and still be allowed to shoot. If I must, one line bet on the shooter to my right. On a DI, see what they are betting and place bet only one of those numbers, hoping they know what their own hot number is for their own toss.

I'd agree that the best bet on a random roller is no bet. After that I'd say it's a $10 Don't Pass followed by a $5 Don't Come. Wait for a decision. You won't make or lose a lot on this action. If you have the reserves and the will to go for it on the randies then I would say bet about half what you'd bet on a known shooter and take an early regression. Take a hit or two after regressing then press slowly. There's a huge difference in how I play and how most people SHOULD play. The big thing is I have sufficient bankroll and don't play with money I can't afford to lose. Most folks do not have that luxury - or that much sense. Last of all - remember you can take your place action down any time you want to. This week, while trying to net $150 a session, many times I've looked out and seen that I had over $150 on the table - and that was all of my profit for the session. When I note that I immediately take down everything except my pass line bet and single or double odds. Nothing wrong with locking up a profit - any time. And I don't HAVE to stand at the table and play for three hours to win a hundred bucks. Often I can do it in one hand. Why hang around after that? My feet hurt already. I don't need to punish them any more.

Don't bet the random rollers! I have learned that lesson plenty!

If I lose money on my own tosses...so be it.

Mixed feelings about random rollers. If they show some sign of a rhythmic roll and are hitting pretty much the same spot I'll use a regression. I always use regression with RRs. Some RRs have had monster rolls and a DI having a bad day is not a great bet either which brings me to a session a guy was telling me about. Now..as all stories are what they are..It's a lesson anyway. He's at Cherokee and a random shooter came out, $10 table, with a 6. Immediately the table is flooded with place bets..as per usual, hardways..you name it. Here was the hand. h6, e8, 5, h8,e8 7. How much do you think was left up on the table? A freakin' ton! Let's talk regression here. Remember this is a randy shooting. $10 PL. 6 come out. No back up odds yet. 8 shows..and now he puts $18 8 and back up 6 with $15. 5 no action. 8 shows and he collects $21 and regresses to $12 8 and regresses his odds to $10. He has won $21 and has $32 in play. 8 hits again. Take the $12 8 to $24 and keep $2. Big nasty 7. So he came away on that roll at plus $23 minus $32 (sounds right)..a loss of $9. Often I don't even play the PL on a randy. So that would remove $20 buck loss right there. And you live to play again!

You lost me at "quiet"