Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Id like to share this story that happened today at my local casino. I have no problem naming this casino but i have had issues with them in the past which is a whole other story.

Im talking to a guy who mentioned there was a 6 number fire bet yesterday. He played it for two dollars and put one dollar "for the crew"
So the 6th number hits, everyones a winner including the crew and shooter finally 7s out. Afterward the guy asked "hey since everyone is in a good mood and you guys won $1000, how about something to eat at the buffet?" Casinos response "Nice try but no" with a smirky smile
What do you think of this?

History lesson: About 2 years ago my local casino changed management thus changing the comp system. In the old days, comps were given if you played for a few hours even at table minimum and were cordial to dealers you got a $10 comp for something at the coffee shop and if they were in a good mood you got $15 to the burger place. It was nice because i had no problem breaking even and getting comped. Made me feel like I won something and it kept me coming back on a regular basis. But that was the past.
So one day they made a big announcement that the comp structure had changed. You had to play $25 a hand and play for 2 consecutive hours to receive an $8 to noodle bar off their "special menu" This included 3 chicken wings or some vegetables with 1/2 cup of rice or minced meat with some noodles. It was literally $8 worth of food and thats it.
So first day after change of comps. I played for a few hours fluctuating between $20-$30 a hand. This was back when my game of choice was Baccarat. My first try to get a comp with new system failed saying " You have to bet $25 minimum for two hours......." Fine
So day two i went back and played $25 at a $25 table for two hours and 15 min. So when i asked for a comp i got denied again with bit boss talking down to me like i was aggravating him by asking for comp. I argued with him saying i met the minimum requirement and wanted to know i wasn't getting comped? His response was "i checked your account and you were over comped last year and have a negative balance. You have to earn back those comp points before you get comped again" Seriously has anyone ever heard of anything like that?
Long story short i took up another level and tried talking to guest services and upper management. They tried to smooth things over by telling me "Congratulations you are considered a winning player since our records show you have not lost massive amounts of money........" So in other words im not allowed comps because im disciplined with my bankroll?

I totally get the casino can do whatever they want with their comps but what is the point of only giving comps to anyone who loses more than $1000 on any given session. (A dealer told me this on the side one day)

cubfan2121,

My local casino used to give players 10% comps on your buy in, now they give you a big zero, slot player now get from 10% they used to get NOW THEY GET 1% FOR EVERY DOLLAR IN TO MACHINE , UP TO 20 DOLLARS A DAY COMPS. And god forbid you loose your parking ticket., if you do They charge you a
20 dollars parking feed. Things are getting bad down here my friend.

If you are a losing casino gambler, just give it up AND save your money and invest it in silver.

Jaime Garcia--- not the baseball player.

While comps are nice, they are not my primary reason for going to the casino. I enjoy the action and possibility of winning money. I'm by no means a professional gambler, I don't have time for that and wouldn't enjoy it. If gambling was my job I'd probably start to hate it, just
like how most people loath their job.
My point is my local casino seems to out of their way to screw gamblers and every opportunity and put more focus on the restaurants, clubs, bar instead of the regulars who go to a casinomto gamble

So which Caesar's property were you playing at?

Seriously, most casinos eliminated what we used to refer to as "discretionary comps" years ago. The bean counters made the decision that they wanted all comps based on your theoretical (loss) and the only way to track that semi-accurately was via the computer. They track your buy in, average bet, number of hours played, and do an assessment of your skill level as a player. Based on that the computer calculates your theoretical loss. The casino is willing to comp you back a percentage of that theoretical loss. Let's plug in numbers with a little bit of added info provided by the algorithm inside the computer.

$250 Buy in.
$25 a hand wagered. Let's call it $25 DP. That means you get rated as a smart player. House has 1.4 advantage but let's say the system see's you do some hedge betting and moves it up to 3%
Hours played. 2
Number of decisions per hour. 60
Number of HANDS per hour. 8

Okay, so you had $25 action for 8 HANDS per hour since you were not place or Come or DC or Lay betting. That's $200 action. The house has a theoretical edge of 3% on you for a whopping $6 win. The casino is willing to comp you 20% of your theoretical losses - or $1.20.

But, of course, since Caesars is now tracking your alcohol consumption at the table you are not a negative expectation player for them so you don't get squat. In fact, they may even start charging you for your drinks.

Now let's look at another player.

Buy in $1000
Average bet $160 across - always up and on
Time played 2 hours
Decisions per hour 60 - his bets exposed to all of them - total number of decisions played is 120. $19,200 total wagered over 2 hours. (It's more than his buy in because he is re-wagering money he won) Casino's assessment of his betting skill level puts them at a 6% advantage.

WOW. That means the casino's theoretical win (or the player's theoretical loss) is $1152. They are willing to comp him the same 20% they gave you. So this guy gets $230 to spend at the steak house. Two nice steaks at $85 each, a mid-priced bottle of wine and a single dessert to split with his date. And yeah, he even gets free drinks at the Caesar's local joint.

Now, the MAIN thing here is the total amount you wager PER DECISION. Next is your length of time played. Last is whether they think you are a smart player. There are things you can do to increase your comp level to a degree. Let's start with the buy in.

Buy in size does not, in itself, have that great of an impact on your rating. It does, however, tell the pit critter that you are a SERIOUS player and not a flea who is there for the free drinks and the few bucks he can leech off the table. Larger buy in helps get the pit critter's respect, if you will.

Most pit critters worked their way up through the ranks as dealers. As such, they appreciate players who toke the dealers even if they themselves do not participate in the tokes. Therefore, you want to toke the boys. It make for a much more enjoyable game for all - and since it's the pit guy who enters your average bet in the system you want to make him your friend, not your enemy.

You can manipulate the illusion of time spent at the table. How. Things like "turn my bets off this roll." "Watch my chips while I run to the restroom." Or if the pit critter is off on the other end of the casino, "take my bets down."

You can manipulate the illusion of the amount wagered at the table also. Remember, what they're looking at is an average of all the bet size entries the pit makes for each player. If you have $110 inside up this time and $330 inside next time - your average bet is $220 inside. So the key is to have more money on the table when the pit critter is writing. I've been known to buy in for $620 while the lights were out, telling the dealer to set me up 120 inside - 30 each on the inside numbers, but to put them "up and off" for now. Put out a decent sized Pass Line bet and watch while the pit records your buy in and initial bet. After he gets the info in the computer you tell the dealer to "make my action look like $18 each on the six and eight" and bring the rest down. Now you're betting $36 until the next time you see the pit coming your way. Keep $120 to $160 set aside in your rack so you can drop it at a moment's notice and tell the dealer to place it inside or spread it across - and to press the six and eight up to $48 each. What the hell - take a little risk for a roll or two. You might find that it helps you down the road.

During your session - salt away a few chips. I'm talking green chips here, because the pit knows where every black chip in the casino is - including the ones in your pocket. But if you can salt away a green chip every fifteen minutes then you've taken $100 off the table. It does not come out of your pocket until you go to the cage. Not only is this an automatic money management move, if you can out with a win it appears to be a small win. But you WANT to cash out with what appears to be a small to medium loss. Why? The casino loves a loser.

Last of all, remember that casino employees have one of the worst jobs on earth. Most of their day is spent dealing with assholes who are drunk and losing. Be nice to them. If you get to know them you may even find that they can get on your side.

First, Heavy, doesn't the boxperson also keep mental tabs on your bets? I see the boxperson get tapped out by the super and they basically switch positions. Then that boxperson is now updating the info on the computer. So they may make changes to your betting average based on what they saw, knowing if you keep big bets off.

I do agree, be kind to the dealers.
1) I even tip sometimes even after a loss (not always). I figure, well if I lost this much, what's does it matter if it's a few more dollars? They will appreciate the effort even after you walk away a loser.
2) be patient with any new dealers, don't be one of those guys that get frustrated with them. You want to be a nice guy, and who doesn't want to help a nice guy? This way supers will remember this and rate you more favorable.
3) get to know dealers and supervisors. Not on a personal level where it gets creepy, but where you can joke around with them, be personable and sincere. Don't do this just for the sake of getting comps.

Now I did this once, and I'm not so proud of it. But to two supervisors, on different occasions, I have complained (to put it mildly) about how little comps and player points I received, considering how much I had lost in one day. Now these are supervisors I have good relations with in the past. They gave me the usual customer service line, but I had noticed a couple of times afterwards I got a "boost" in my points, even though I scaled back my bets because of the previous low points I had received. So basically talk to a super that your have build a good relation with about the comps, but do this once because you don't want to be seen just as a complainer.

Yes, comps are nice, and as the saying goes "the best things in life are free", but you have to get rid of this mantra. Focus on your game, and have the mindset that you don't need comps, you can just pay for it with your winnings. In time your comps will build up, think a watch pot never boils.

When my local casino seemed to get more stingy with comps, I said okay, I'll just bet even less. No need to give them what they want; for you to risk more on each roll.

Also make friends at the table. My card level use to grant me access to the players lounge (currently I'm working my way back again), but several players were kind enough to get me back in as their guest.

Beginning in Oct , I started a quest for goal . I know one should not play solely for comps or a larger loser`s card level , but my bankroll is such and my betting is always low roller style. plus my age is nearing a time when you realize that casino trips are not going to be as frequent as when you were an energetic youngster. I know my dedicated gambling bankroll will last me the rest of my life. So why not try and play for a higher card level and try to add more comps dollars to an existing comp account?

At my local casino, most of the dealers and pit know or at least recognize me. A lot of the dealer`s on the stick push the dice right past me , knowing that , "I promised my wife that I would never shoot dice." They also know that I am not a big tipper, but I do tip every time I play. Also , I am sure that they know that I am a low maintenance player. As one boxman told a dealer one day, " "Ernest", never bitches about losing and never gets excited about winning."

Here are some figures in my quest for Gold ; keep in mind that I am playing a $10 DP and laying single odds , losing one bet per shooter in all sessions.

I played on 9 days for 28.2 hours. A total of 413 shooters had turns with the dice . My theoretical loss was $56.17. I received $85.83 in comps and received 9009 in tier credits.

Conclusion: Beginning Jan 1, 2017, I am aborting my quest for Gold. It would take playing about 20 hours per month to attain Gold at that $10 level of play . I could bet more , but I am a frugal, low action player.

I guess I shall return to being a $5 DP or $10 DP player who once ahead will leave the table with a win , which is how I built up my bankroll in the first place.

Oh , I suppose ya`ll want to know how much I won or lost at the casino during my three month experiment in my quest for Gold? I lost $227 .

A lot of the casinos discontinued the box person job a few years ago. In some casinos with box people, like most Boyd properties, the box person does input your info in the system. Back in the day this was strictly a floor man's job. These days every casino seems to do it differently. If you are really concerned about your rating then call the TGS aside when you color up and ask him what dollar amount they rated you at. If you think it's too low then tell him and tell him what you think it should be. He can change it if he wants.

cubfan2121 ( go cubs!)
Last trip to Biloxi I was told I had been over comped last trip.I would have to make it up before I could receive anymore comps.
First time I had heard that.

DF what do you think gave you the high comp level compared to theo? Was it all the nice guy, who tips and is low maintenance approach giving you and added benefit at the back end?

They probably just don`t realize that I am not wagering much per hour played. It is not because I am overly friendly (I usually only speak when spoken to) and it surely isn`t because of large tokes .

Now, another property next door does the opposite when I play there, which is why I have not played at the next door property in a few months.

My issue with the RIVERS CASINO in desplains, is that it is a casino that caters to high rollers , tourist, travelers who are stuck on a lay over from ohare and losing gamblers.I just talked to the stick guy today and he mentioned they increased their quota from 80 rolls per hour to 100 rolls per hour in order to increase the action. I jokingly asked him why, even though i already had an idea, and his response was "think about it, more action at a negative expectation game equals more money for the casino. I followed it up with "what about the patrons gambling?" He giggled and said "cmon man this is Rivers, when do the patrons come first in this place?" This is coming form their own employees

My last gripe about this place was over their mailers and coupons which I never receive. One day while standing in line at burger place i noticed that a person with entry level card had a coupon for $20. I asked her "oh nice coupon how do i get one of those? Im a blue card (mid level card)" She shrugged her shoulders and giggled. So i went to guest services and asked "how does someone with a entry level card (gold) get mailings and coupons while someone with a blue card doesnt? Obvioiulsy Ive put in the time, spent the money and earned the points enough to move up a level.
Guest services response "our records show your a winning player....... Yes the same response i got from my previous post. So my follow up question was "so you only reward losing players?" Her response "no, we base it off your time, buy in, length of time....."
Then we just went around in circles and i gave up

Yes I could have stopped giving my action to local casino, and I did for about a year. But now i just go in to practice my craps game with the intent of making some profits then leave. I dont eat, I dont ask for comps and have no intention of ever recommending this place to anyone who wants to gamble.

Greetings C.F. 2121,

So how much does it cost you a night to practice.?

Jaime 1943.

Buy in: $500
Win goal:$100 or fire bet win or 2 hour time limit
Loss limit: $200-$300

When I first started playing 9 months ago, I took my lumps. I didn't know how to make place bets, pressing bets, turning bets off etc....

But now I have a pretty good grasp of whats going on. Today' was a shit show and two hours past so I lost $100.
But last few days I've been fortunate enough to be on. Hot shooter right away and walk away making $50-$150 per session in less than 30 min.
I'm
Not about to say I win every session but I don't lose every session either. I start work again on Monday and it's back to my regular grind

For obvious reasons the busiest casino is even stingier when it comes to comps. Like you mentioned Rivers caters to high rollers and gets lots of them.

Personally, I am a low roller but my buddy plays in the high limit room. He would talk me into tagging along with him. I would observe some insane amounts being bet by young asian guys and gals in their 20's. There was also this old persian guy with his hot sugar baby. She would sit next to him looking all bored. I winked and smiled at his sugar baby once for kicks she gave me an eye roll. Money makes people look a lot more attractive so until I become rich I'll be ugly to her.

I played baccarat there back when you can place bets while standing. It was a circus like atmosphere at times. There were fights and arguments over who had placed the winning bet. At times there were a few people deep behind the seated players placing bets.

I played craps there a while back the table I played on was quite bouncy to say the least. If I lived closer I would pick my spots and play DP DC.

One good thing about Rivers you do not have a rough crowd at the tables like my locals joint. Lots of small buy ins slow down the game.

My last gripe about this place was over their mailers and coupons which I never receive. One day while standing in line at burger place i noticed that a person with entry level card had a coupon for $20. I asked her "oh nice coupon how do i get one of those? Im a blue card (mid level card)" She shrugged her shoulders and giggled. So i went to guest services and asked "how does someone with a entry level card (gold) get mailings and coupons while someone with a blue card doesnt? Obvioiulsy Ive put in the time, spent the money and earned the points enough to move up a level.
Guest services response "our records show your a winning player....... Yes the same response i got from my previous post. So my follow up question was "so you only reward losing players?" Her response "no, we base it off your time, buy in, length of time....."
Then we just went around in circles and i gave up

There are a couple of places in my neck of the woods and out West that have me tagged in their systems as a "smart player." Smart players don't get free comp offers.

I'll tell you what a host at the Fremont in Vegas (decidedly NOT a high roller joint) told me once. Every time you come in the casino put $10 in a .25 cent slot machine and run it through. That'll get you on the mailing list. I did - and it did.

So that is the answer! I have a card to Harrah's. They are stingy as hell.MEH! Can't get past the "gold" no matter how much I play with at the crap tables or the slots. I'm about ready to toss it back at them. I think it probably takes years to get anything good or every day play..which I can't do being 2 hrs away.