Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Always interested in betting strategies and wondered how most of you here feel about WOTCO? Good or bad, yes or no as a strategy. I do realize that some shooters go with a sevens set and that would be a certain no-no.

As a relative newbie I have seen a few shooters use the WOTCO over the past year. From what I have seen it has been mainly a disaster!

As an example, TRUE STORY, there's been a new guy coming into the casino lately. He plainly tells the ENTIRE table that he wants ALL his bets, WOTCO. I've seen the dealers miss this a few times and he just goes ballistic! I calmly suggested to him that the best thing for him to do was WATCH all his bets, always. He thanked me and started watching his bets with an eagle eye. Anyway, his approach was table maximum bets on the inside numbers ($5 min/ $300 max). He started off betting himself and every randie at the table and seemed to do OK for about five hands. Then, he got hit with a CO seven three times in a row. I leaned over and told him the guy was setting for the seven CO toss and he just said, OK. He CONTINUED the WOTCO routine and then asked ME to bet the max inside for him WOTCO, as I was just sitting idle. I told him I was uncomfortable with the whole idea but, he insisted since I was not betting at the time. I agreed, for one shooter only, as he said he was going to get his lost money back by doubling up (bad idea I said). He shoots, CO SEVEN! Throws more money at me and I DECLINED saying I would be no part of it anymore. Long story shortened, he enlisted two others and funded them for his play as I watched him throw THREE MORE CO SEVENS!!! He left shaking his head and EVERYONE at the table was speechless.

Are there certain circumstances to use this strategy or just forget about it?

It is not something I do myself or on the randies.

However, if you think of this logically and have a recognised edge with your rolls, then whatever box numbers you have edge on, you should be working them at all times to maximise your profit potential. Otherwise the come out roll is just a missed opportunity. Of course if your shooting is also very good with an all 7s set, then thoughts of WOTCO may be shelved whilst you engage in a separate come out play.

Personally, I like the break the come out roll gives me. Also it may be a chance to change sets, such as to the crossed 6s, if I am trying to snipe out some extreme numbers for the ATS.

I'm not a fan of WOTCO. The Come Out should, IMHO, be approached as a different game. You're TRYING to toss a seven or eleven on the Come Out, whereas on the point cycle you're trying to avoid the seven. Of course, if you are like me, the Come Out is very much an "entertainment" part of the game as I use it to experiment with Prop Action, looking for a better win. Personally, I don't think it's ever a good idea to risk something like $160 to win anywhere from $35 to $50 on a Come Out roll. If I wanted to do something like that I'd just Lay $160 against the four or ten for a shot at a bigger win by tossing a seven. If I were really confident in my ability to toss a seven I'd consider laying all of the numbers on the come out - or perhaps hop the sevens for $10 each or so. Alas, I'm not.

When you're tossing and elect to WOTCO - its like poking the casino in the eye. I've seen DIs do it and the heat ratchets up FAST. Its not pleasant. Much better to either make the come-out a separate opportunity; or change sets to get a different Fire Bet number or ATS. I never WOTCO, D.N8r

The casino craps crews are accustomed to "Bets Off"
during the Come Out Roll.( Standard Procedure)
..You have the option to call "My Bets Are Working"
.
You may be asked if you then will have your wagers WOTCO all the time...
In my opinion the best answer is "Working only when I so say "

w c

I don't think I've ever really seen this, except for hardways, until my last session. Guy next to me toward the end of my session was playing $5 DP for the first 3 shooters, then out of the blue he bets $64 across working on the comeout. Shooter rolled a Yo then a seven. I audibly said "ouch". He didn't put it back up that roll, but then he did it again randomly a couple more times as the same shooter continued to roll.

No way I have the balls (or disdain for my hard-earned money) for that!

I do WOTCO. If I'm shooting I do $44 inside on a $10 table and $22 inside on a $5 table. Of course I don't set for the sevens then. I'd gladly set for the sevens if there is an obnoxious dark side player with money on the DP. You know the guy, the one other right side shooters are giving the stink eye and disdainful looks. If I do get an inside number WOTCO, the money from that then becomes odds money for the pass. On randies I'll do table minimum on the six and eight... working.

It's funny how others give me an " I told you so" when the seven shows while WOTCO. But say nothing when I hit one of my numbers. I tell them it's all psychological. What if you weren't working on the come out, threw a seven on the first roll (you win), set the point then immediately seven out? Same thing! It's all a mind game.

Thing is, have a plan before you go to the table weather it be sticking to one strategy or transitioning from one to another as the game goes. That guy you saw had a plan, stuck to it and it cost him a lot. Unfortunately it didn't work then. Had he transitioned to a different strategy..... well, that's a subject of another post.

It's a hard call to make. It can get you ahead, but people usually are shooting for middle of table on comeout.

So basically it is a flawed strategy. I do it from time to time on my own bets tho. After a big throw for ex.

Yesterday I rolled a 40ish. Made 3 ats pay...
I like to wotco bets when I have a plan and profits to jumpstart a new hand to profit early and regress.

If you are working on the ATS and have several numbers already, you won't be setting for the seven on a new come out. If the seven shows on that come out, it will wipe out all the numbers you already had. And since you are not setting for a seven, might as well WOTCO.

You know, the more I really think about it, I rarely ever toss a seven on the CO, UNLESS I am trying to (and that doesn't even happen much). I have all but abandon setting for and trying to hit a seven anymore. I suppose I will take a hard look at this from the responses.

Irukanji...I talked to a fellow shooter today that knows the guy I mentioned above. He told me, "that is the guy's strategy ALWAYS." He said that loss was nothing compared to the wins that guy makes. Obviously, the guy is a whale and I just didn't know it. If he ever tried to DI and not just RR, who knows what he might could do.

Too bad he missed my 27 straight inside numbers toss this morning with the 3V set...and I SO without even hitting the point or a single HW. Oh well, nobody cared I missed my point...not even myself! Best I've had in awhile...

Nice, I'll take a roll like that any day!

Nicely done. But as they say, "trip report, or it didn't happen"

Heck! I'll take 27 inside numbers without a point being made any day. Nice roll.

I don't know what happened but one morning I made 4 points in 8 rolls. Same set being used but 4 different point numbers. No repeaters. Too bad the table did not have the fire bet. Thing is, I didn't put any odds down on any of the pass line bets. So I made $40 on a $10 minimum table. But lost $44 inside on the next point set as it was a PSO. Go figure!

I amazed myself actually but, it IS why I practice and aspire to pull off. I believe variance finally showed up for a change from my PSOs.

22Inside...lol, that WAS my trip report. I did a Heavy...Get in, get up, get gone! One hand and I was waving goodbye, see ya next week.

If I am having a long hand with lots of repeat box numbers I actually prefer not to hit my pass line bet. Seems to keep the table flow going better without a lot of breaks. That is just me but I never worry about if I am bringing back the pass line or not. The long roll is the thing.

rhythm roller wrote:If I am having a long hand with lots of repeat box numbers I actually prefer not to hit my pass line bet. Seems to keep the table flow going better without a lot of breaks. That is just me but I never worry about if I am bringing back the pass line or not. The long roll is the thing.

I totally agree! It keeps me in the groove and almost all of my tosses were exactly in the same spot/duplicated, with influenced results as I see it.

Based on what I've read, WOTCO is the mathematical way to go....but I'm sure that has a lot of variables. Based on how I play, if I'm ahead, I WOTCO. I NEVER shoot for a 7. Ever.... That's just my stubborn superstition. Long roll or not, I want to avoid the devil in every aspect of the game. If I do by chance roll a 7 on the CO, I consider myself lucky, lucky that I still get to continue throwing. That said, if I get smacked a couple of times working, I usually regress to keeping them off for a bit.

irish wrote:After a pass, I'm less likely to do it. I've already banked X dollars, and now I risk losing all or part of it on a single roll of the dice. By the way, this has happened on multiple occasions.

Agree completely...I risked to get there, I got there, now I want to keep some money after my pass. I have slammed myself so many times after making the first pass

Warning- This may sound like superstitious BS, but after years of playing and practicing I've come to believe that the main reason to not WTCO is that it can cause you to think about the seven while you are tossing. I honestly believe your frame of mind affects how you shoot, and a nervous, unconfident mind that is dreading a CO7 is actually a mind that is focusing on the seven. In other words, I believe if you think about the seven it is more likely that you will throw one.
If you can work on the CO and focus on the task at hand, then WOTCO is a better prospect.

Americraps wrote:Warning- This may sound like superstitious BS, but after years of playing and practicing I've come to believe that the main reason to not WTCO is that it can cause you to think about the seven while you are tossing. I honestly believe your frame of mind affects how you shoot, and a nervous, unconfident mind that is dreading a CO7 is actually a mind that is focusing on the seven. In other words, I believe if you think about the seven it is more likely that you will throw one.
If you can work on the CO and focus on the task at hand, then WOTCO is a better prospect.

I believe you can psych yourself out at times. I WOTCO in practice using Wincraps most ALL the time with terrific results working the inside numbers (my dominant numbers). Yea...it's just funny money.

In live casino play, I haven't had the balls to do it yet as a relative newbie. What I have done in casino play was to setup my inside number bets prior to the CO but, not working. Then I kept a mind record of whether or not it was to my advantage. Needless to say, I quit that REAL FAST! I seemed to lose my focus on throwing and started tossing trash.

Superstitious BS? Psych out? I don't really know for sure but, I think you are on to something there Americraps...