Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Is there a guide or tutorial, or maybe a video, of how to use the bonetracker software?

Bonetracker has a guide that comes with it when you down load the program.

Bankerdude had a post Bonetracker Validation ( in the Dice Control for Casino Craps with screen shots that may help.)

Thanks much for the info

How do you record the rolls that bounce off the table on bonetracker or do you just skip it and move on?

Those are not recorded. If you're having trouble with dice bouncing off the table, I would focus on getting that under control first before diving too deep into the bone tracker pool, as your results are more than likely going to look random and the data is not going to be of much help at this point in your DI journey.

what 22Inside said! I used to say record whatever shows however they lie. But really if you can't keep them on the table then you need to focus on mechanics and not worry about tracking numbers. However, don't cherry pick either. If you are tossing well and recording, then decide up-front what you are going to do on miss-rolls. You can call them all no-rolls or decide to record them, but be consistent. Don't decide you like the results on the floor (i.e. a hard eight) and decide you'll go ahead and add that one in.

I got a question the other day and decided to bump this thread up as the last two comments by 22Inside and Maddog cover key ideas in tracking your tosses.

I don’t count the ones on the floor and if you’re tossing five pairs in a cycle (since they are five to a pack from the Heavy store) and more than one toss in ten is flying off the rig or table then put down some carpet/rugs so they don’t get chipped on the “garage” floor. There’s nothing good about destroying your practice dice a hundred tosses into your book

DN8R

i agree with MD,DN8R, and 22,

If you're having trouble with dice bouncing off the table, I would focus on getting that under control first before diving too deep into the bone tracker pool,

This pretty much sums it up.^^

If your dice are bouncing wildly whether on the floor or anywhere else bonetracker is merely recording random tosses and results are natural occurring variance that will constantly change. There was a post on another thread the other day about just recording perfect tosses. That would be nice if the casinos would only count the tosses we wanted them too. All dice tosses count but if they are going on the floor spend the tracking time on toss perfecting.

LWinthorpe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:44 pm How do you record the rolls that bounce off the table on bonetracker or do you just skip it and move on?

I just made them a 7, just like left wall hits

Raider wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:11 am

LWinthorpe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:44 pm How do you record the rolls that bounce off the table on bonetracker or do you just skip it and move on?

I just made them a 7, just like left wall hits

Hmmmm, sounds like an SRR distorter, does that include deadcats too?

I made a decision to only log rolls that were tossed as an actual toss... by the i mean, if a dies slips from grips and goes wild, or if i bang the back wall Before the felt .... i see no reason to count those in BT .... now if one takes a weird hop, or one rolls half back the table it counts ... off the table? No way i count that .... im trying to use software to help with my advantage ... mechanics aside.

Parson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:28 pm I made a decision to only log rolls that were tossed as an actual toss... by the i mean, if a dies slips from grips and goes wild, or if i bang the back wall Before the felt .... i see no reason to count those in BT .... now if one takes a weird hop, or one rolls half back the table it counts ... off the table? No way i count that .... im trying to use software to help with my advantage ... mechanics aside.

But are you seeing those types of rolls that you're not counting in BT in live play?

22Inside wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:41 pm

Parson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:28 pm I made a decision to only log rolls that were tossed as an actual toss... by the i mean, if a dies slips from grips and goes wild, or if i bang the back wall Before the felt .... i see no reason to count those in BT .... now if one takes a weird hop, or one rolls half back the table it counts ... off the table? No way i count that .... im trying to use software to help with my advantage ... mechanics aside.

But are you seeing those types of rolls that you're not counting in BT in live play?

Never , lol ... but to me the idea behind bonetracker is to help you find your optimum set, under normal situations... losing a grip on a dice can happen anywhere, but it doesnt help BT give me the stats that would be accurate for the normal toss... at least to me.... if i am wrong convince me i need to count every toss ... i used too.

If the dice do not stay in the practice rig, I do not track it. I consider it a die off the table.

At the risk of breaking the no politics rule, ALL DICE TOSSES MATTER.

If the casino counts the die that flips off the table you should too!

Parson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:16 pm Never , lol ... but to me the idea behind bonetracker is to help you find your optimum set, under normal situations... losing a grip on a dice can happen anywhere, but it doesnt help BT give me the stats that would be accurate for the normal toss... at least to me.... if i am wrong convince me i need to count every toss ... i used too.

Parson,

BT was developed to see if the shooter has an edge, how much, and where it manifested itself over a large book of tosses. And you are correct that it gives you optimum set. Now it has evolved for a great deal more information.
Note that optimum set means nothing if you do not have an edge. So, it is kinda the chicken and the egg question, but in this instance, the Chicken (read: edge) comes first, and must always be prevalent.

You can do what you want, I feel no need to convince you. The golden rule for me is that if a casino would count the toss, it should be recorded in BT. ie...Dice off the table/rig, die on the dealer chips, no roll, too tall to call. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out. If you should ever post your results on the board while making the kind of decisions posted above, you should add a disclaimer.

Others are alluding to this in posts above, they are correct.

Memo

DarthNater wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:29 pm

Raider wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:11 am

LWinthorpe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:44 pm How do you record the rolls that bounce off the table on bonetracker or do you just skip it and move on?

I just made them a 7, just like left wall hits

Hmmmm, sounds like an SRR distorter, does that include deadcats too?

It was, but I got better

1. A valid toss flies towards the backwall, hits the deck before contacting the backwall and shortly comes to rest. Forget those designer shots that
circle around the sides and corners. Let's keep this very basic.

2. While anything the dice hits along this path is legal in the casino, the practice rig/table is where one hones a valid DI toss. To hone a valid DI toss means that you're working towards an ideal where the bones hit the deck before hitting the backwall, followed by coming to rest near the backwall. In addition, they should not hit anything that interrupts the movement of either die from the moment you release them to the moment they come to rest. Of course we also need to avoid the seven but let's assume the complexities of grips, trajectories, etc. are all taking place in the honing of a valid DI toss.

3. BT is a statistical tool to take CONSECUTIVE dice results as input and provide analyses that characterize the input in various ways in order
to enhance casino results.

4. If you attempt a valid DI toss and one or both of the dice
- hit the side wall before coming to rest;
- bounce off the rig/table;
- hit a die left on the table from previous attempts;
- hit the puck, chips, stick, chair-rail, floor, etc.;
then you simply do not know what that particular die result is from your own influence.

Your own influence is what skills you hone such that the dice result is unambiguously from your skill and not from having, let's say, a collision with a puck that stops the die prematurely. Moreover, you would never want to PRACTICE trying to get that non-seven by first hitting the chair rail!

5. You simply cannot enter UNKNOWNS into Bonetracker and expect it to reflect reality-based skill. You cannot practice DI as a skill and have the dice both be legal AND make extraneous collisions and then load the results into BT and let BT assume these results are valid and reflect ONLY your DI when they also reflect unknown influences. Most of these unknowns would be SEVENS but were not recorded as such.

6. If you say, "I'll only count my tosses that didn't make extraneous contacts",the result is still bogus. Why? Because the result you did not put into BT could have easily been a SEVEN if that die had not made an extraneous contact. Remember that the trick with DI is to look at CONSECUTIVE rolls between sevens. An SRR that includes any UNKNOWNS among those recorded rolls would likely wreck anyone's CHI-SQUARE or SRR if they were flagged and replaced with sevens.

7. It's much harder to attain a reliable edge in craps than most here think.
The casinos are not worried for obvious reasons.