Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Irish's thread on DI misconception has strayed into the area of flat betting, and I think it's time we talk about just what flat betting is. I'll start out with the Webster dictionary definition: a bet at even money (as in craps)

So let's think about that. Is a $6 six and eight flat betting? How about buying the four or ten for $25? What about the Field bet? The All Tall Small? The hardways?

Nope. None of those are "flat bets." The Field almost qualifies, but it pays double on the two or twelve, and on some layouts pays triple on the twelve. That's not a flat bet.

The main flat bets at craps are Pass Line, Don't Pass Line, Come Line and Don't Come Line.

There are all sorts of betting strategies out there that focus on catching a string of Pass or Don't Pass decisions. And if you have sufficient influence over the dice that you can gain an edge over the Pass Line - you are years ahead of the game. I have several of them listed over on the axispowercraps.com site at this link: http://www.axispowercraps.com/flat-bett ... trategies/

Check the article out. And while you're over there browse around a bit. You'll find a lot of content that you'll like.

Let me see if I got this. So, by definition a flat bet is a bet that pays 1 to 1?

When there was mention of flat betting, I seemed to have interpreted that as not pressing your bets (place bets). Just taking the payout each time it hit. Glad we got that cleared up.

I take the definition of flat betting as you do BD - work out your bet size relative to bankroll and edge and then you play the session using that particular bet size without varying. Same bet, same bet, same bet.

Ideally, if you are making money and your bankroll is increasing and your edge is maintained then your bet size also increases over time.

Gimme a Big 6 and Big 8 for $6 each.

Count me along with BD and LS on what I thought flat betting was. Learn something new every day...

I always thought flat betting was 1:1 payout betting.

LS, you said..."work out your bet size relative to bankroll and edge"...I always understood that to be a "unit", when betting or unit betting.

It IS interesting to, all of a sudden, come to the realization that what we thought something meant, was really something a bit different.

I'm with BD and LS on this. Just "same bet" all the time racking up wins.

My perception of what Heavy described above is "even money betting".

Flat betting is just same betting.

Yet another area where we're going to agree to disagree. If you want to bet a $5 Big Six or Big Eight you're flat betting. If you're Placing the Six and Eight for $6 you're getting paid $7. You're not getting paid even money. Flat bets are - by definition - even money bets. I already posted the Webster definition. Here's what Google has to say:

Flat betting means that all of your bets have equal weighting ... I flat bet by taking my unit amount (1 in this example), and bet the amount that the risk + the win = double the unit size.

There are instances (mostly in sports betting) where flat betting refers to betting exactly the same amount on every play. But I disagree that it applies to casino craps.

Oh well. There you go. Trying to eliminate confusion and end up creating more.

Since we're talking about flat betting has anyone ever run a 1/2/3 progression of a 1 unit pass line bet then a 2 unit come bet and then a 3 unit come bet and then letting the hand play out if it lasts that long? Did it work for you?

I've done it on the Don't before. Also 1-2-3-2. Couple of variants like 1-3-6 and 1-2-4-2. Some succumb along tge way but i prefer a five step Fibo. 1-1-2-3-5.

Well I've never heard of flat betting used in this way. In my arena a flat bet is simply the same amount placed on each selection. E.g if I go horse racing and have £100 to spend and play on 5 races I'll do £20 per race regardless of the odds of the horse. That is flat betting.

Relating that to casino betting, flat betting effectively becomes same bet in the manner detailed by Irish above, especially if Kelly is brought in.

If in the casino it refers to even money bets only, then I'll have to change my thought process for that discussion. It also suggests that for DI, the term flat bet is fairly redundant as nobody is really just going to bet pass/come, DP/DC without making use of odds - or alternatively if that is all they do, then theoretically they are missing out on a good portion of their potential profit stream.

theoretically they are missing out on a good portion of their potential profit stream.

Okay, Im going to play Irish for a minute here. Let's say with an SRR of 7 you have a 1% positive EV. Other that free odds, what wager will best exploit that edge?

Ok Hirish, pass and come bets

So if you can influence the dice to get a 7 SRR - can you influence the dice to get a 5 SRR by setting FOR the sevens? How many of you actually USE the all sevens set on the come out in an effort to exploit your natural edge on the bet even if you don't influence the dice (8 ways to win versus 4 ways to lose)? Other than $5 Bill - how many of you actually shoot from the Don'ts? If not - why DON'T you shoot from the Don'ts?

I used to set for 7s on the come out, but then along came the ATS and led me astray. Actually I should go back to an all 7s set on the come out locally since we are now devoid of bonus bets.

Have never shot from the don'ts. I guess it is a bit like same bet syndrome......no glamour, boring etc.....

However in a serious way, you only get that one winning hit then lose the dice. That's not such a bad thing on an empty table or where there are few players. Otherwise it seems logical to try and manifest your edge by rolling for as long as possible.

But I'll now flip it round again by saying I think shooting from the don'ts and laying across on the come out is a very strong play that I would love to try one day.

heavy wrote:So if you can influence the dice to get a 7 SRR - can you influence the dice to get a 5 SRR by setting FOR the sevens? How many of you actually USE the all sevens set on the come out in an effort to exploit your natural edge on the bet even if you don't influence the dice (8 ways to win versus 4 ways to lose)? Other than $5 Bill - how many of you actually shoot from the Don'ts? If not - why DON'T you shoot from the Don'ts?

Someone who can get a 7 SRR, may not necessarily be able to get a 5 SRR. The first can be done by avoidance, while the second by a prime hit.

I like to set for the hardway on the CO. It is more easy to see a flaw in my toss opposed to a 3V/2V. If I happen to double-pitch than I can make the appropriate adjustments but also benefit from the Seven. If I had set for the all-Seven and double pitch, then all I did was get a hardway.

I don't like shooting from the Don't. If you shoot from the Don't you only can only usually make your profit once per hand. By shooting from the Pass, once you make your "hit" whether from the Line or from Place Bets, you can continue to shoot.

I have a slight higher seven count on the come out but almost never shoot from the don't. Expecially true now that I only get to the casinos 4 times a year. Didn't shoot from the don't my for several years.

Noaj

I don't like shooting from the Don't. If you shoot from the Don't you only can only usually make your profit once per hand. By shooting from the Pass, once you make your "hit" whether from the Line or from Place Bets, you can continue to shoot.

I hear this often. I also hear guys say they don't like "laying" more out there than they're going to win. For example, laying $31 to win $20 on the five or nine.

This is, of course, flawed logic. If you play the DC and make continuous bets you can end up with all six of the box numbers working for you. Then just even out and collect on all of them (odds are you won't do this, but odds are you won't collect on six place bets either).

If you're a $44 inside bettor then you are risking $44 to win $14 on the next toss of the dice. If you're laying $41 no four you're risking $41 to win $20 on the next toss. Which is the better bet?

Over time, you'll lose a lot less laying the 4 for $41 than betting $44 across. As usual, assuming you have no edge on the game.

Since this has strayed into don't flat betting. Here are some advantages. Crowded table with jerks? No problem. You don't have to be a DI who has to get up at 5 in the morning to find a clear table. In fact you don't have to be a DI at all! No worries about table bounce..the more the merrier. EDE's? Bring them on! With your winnings you can tip a cocktail waitress to go around and tap shooters on the shoulder. Downside? You will not win a lot of money unless you play with a lot of money. No going from a $20 buy- in to a grand. To answer Irish's question..why don't we play the best bets? Cause it is boring and the nature of gamblers is to want excitement..which is contrary to making money most of the time. We can't all be like Dice Trakkr. He plays strictly to make money and is pretty damn good at it.