Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Okay, it's a little off topic from craps, but sometimes you NEED to take a sit-down break from craps and one of my favorite ways to take a load off is to grab a chair at a Pai Gow Poker table.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the game, Pai Gow Poker is an Americanized version of the Chinese game that's played with tiles (think dominoes). Most of us will never play the Chinese version because we'd be the only Gwailou at the table. That's slang for Honky, if you get my drift. But Pai Gow Poker is extremely popular with Americans because it's played with cards, is a relatively low vig game, and because there are a lot of "ties" or "pushes" in the game you lose (when you're losing) at a slower pace than many other games.

Dumbed down rules: Place your bet. You only make ONE bet per game. (Because there are so many ties and the game is played at a slow pace, I like to play green chips. This gets me a better rating with the casino with low exposure).

After the bets are placed each player (typically a six player table plus the dealer) receives 7 cards from the 53-card deck (52 cards plus one joker). That's 49 cards dealt out for those of you who studied math at a liberal arts college. The four remaining cards are left face down as a muck pile.

Next you have to arrange your cards into two poker hands. The big hand is a standard five card poker hand. The small hand is made up of just two cards, and can only be two high cards or a pair. The joker is a limited wild card in that it can be used to substitute for any rank to complete a straight or any suit to complete a flush. If it can't be used for either of those, the joker will always be an ace. In the two-card hand a joker is always an ace.

The only rule for separating your hands is simple: The five card hand MUST outrank the two card hand.

GOOD NEWS! If you're not sure how to set your hands correctly ask the dealer to help. He/she will arrange them for you. But it would be nice if you'd learn the rankings and set them yourself.

Once all hands are set, you must compare your two hands to the corresponding two hands of the dealer. If both of your hands are better than both of the dealer hands, you make 1:1 on your bet. If only one of your hands is better than the dealer's, it's a push. If both your hands are worse than the dealers, you lose your bet. Simple, right?

STRATEGY: Because you can't lose your money if just one of your hands is better than the dealer, it's common strategy to split your hand in a way which gives you the strongest possible two-card hand (without outranking your five-card hand).

There is an exception to this strategy. If you're able to make a very strong five-card hand, such as a straight or better, then your five-card hand is almost sure to be a winner, you can take a random shot on any two card hand you play.
When separating hands with no pairs, the commonly accepted method is to leave the highest-ranked card in the back hand, putting the second two largest ranking cards in the front, making it as strong as possible without outranking the back hand. Make sense? No? Okay, we'll have to work on that.

Other than playing the above basic strategy, most of the systems out there incorporate some sort of betting progression. You know me. The Fibonacci is my go-to play. The Fibonacci is a negative progression. When you win on any level your next bet is the "same bet." You objective is to win two bets in a row. Then you regress back to a single unit. Let's give you an example"

1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 8 (now if you won at the 8 unit level you'd bet the same 8 units again) - 8 - (and if you won THAT bet you'd start over at 1 unit). If you lose that bet you continue the progression with 13 units - 21 - 34 - etc. Of course, a prolonged losing streak eventually ends you up at table max, so I like to cap my betting at the 8 unit level. If I lose a $200 bet it's probably time for me to take a break.

Let's run through those numbers in dollars: $25 - $25 - $50 - $75 - $125 - $200. That's a $500 draw down. I'd call that a loss limit session.

Last of all, there are various side bets available in Pai Gow Poker. As with side bets in all game, your best bet it no bet. The house edge on these is up around 8% as I recall. So for every $5.00 you bet on the Dragon Bet, for example, you're essentially throwing .40 cents in the trash.

Okay, enough of me and my play. I'd like to hear how many of you play this game and what your approach to it is. Comments?

Min bet, avoid side bets, tell dealer to set my hand house way if I am feeling rusty.........grab a drink and repeat

LOL. You complicated things a bit for me, LS. Always "same bet?"

Actually, no. I’ll throw in some kind of conservative progression. $15 tables seem the norm, so I’d go something like 15-15-25-35-50 which is about what I’d also do at blackjack. Playing BJ I’d probably stop at 50 as it gets a bit tasty for my usual buyin if I need to split and/or double. Pai Gow - no such probs. You know what your exposure is, so there is more scope to keep a progression sion going.

Due to large numbers of ties and slow pace of play, I find it hard to remember putting any sort of decent runs together. I don’t play a lot though so number of hands over the years would be significantly less than at BJ.

$10 tables here with a 5% commission on all wins. I use a 1-1-1-2-3-4-5-6 unit progression ($230). On any win, I let it ride and add whatever unit level bet I was at, in addition to it. Back to back wins gives me a decent ROI and I start over from the beginning.

NO Dragon betting for me...that's just throwing away money to the casino. In the hundreds of games I've played or watched, I have only seen ONE hand that would have paid any bonus (Natural Straight Flush w/Ace-Ace) and the guy did NOT have a bet on it.

It's a fun game really with a slow pace as you said Heavy. Strange observation of the game, for me, is that it seems the first and last dealt players seem to lose a lot. I notice the inside players get more back to back wins, so I try and get one of those chairs. I also notice that the regular serious players also seem to want to play from the inside positions. Maybe they have observed the same as I, I don't know.

The other GREAT thing about it is that the table is right across from the craps table. If the craps table is full, or my favorite spot is taken, I can just keep my eye on it until somebody leaves the craps table!

I walked the entire floor at the Horseshoe in Bossier looking for a Pai Gow poker game. None. Zip. Nada. I saw PLENTY of Three Card Poker games, Mississippi Stud games, Blackjack and carnival Blackjack games, and mini-baccarat games. There were, in fact, two $25 mini-baccarat games open on Thursday night. One table was completely empty. The other had two players.

I saw NO full tables other than roulette. I could have gotten a seat at any of them. The only game that you'd have difficulty finding a spot to play was craps. Unless, of course, you wanted to play bubble craps.

Pathetic game selection and floor management in my opinion.

Who dictates the floor games? Is it on a casino by casino basis or do the corporate bean counters come up with some magic formula that they dictate will work at all of their properties?

scout wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:33 am Thanks for the comments. I have never played Pai Gow. How would you compare it to mini bacc from a win probability standpoint?

Scout...IMO, win probability is probably better with Baccarat (and a sound betting strategy) but, more volatile. Like Heavy says, Pai Gow allows for stretching out your $s further since there are more push decisions than Baccarat and a generally slower game pace.

My wife was having a book club meeting at the house last night so I need a place to hide out for a couple of hours. Read up on rules and strategy an hour before heading to the casino. Like Heavy said, I rented a chair for 2 1/2 hours. $15 min table and most of my bets were between table min and a couple of times I worked my way up to the $50 level. Most of the night I was up, but the dealer strung together 3-4 real strong hands at the end of the session that left me $40 down for the night. The only time all night I lost 3 hands in a row without even a push. I was gone!

Personally I found the game to be a bit boring and slow....So many pushes!! But I got the hang of setting my hands fairly quickly and it was a great way to earn comps and kill time. Anyone considering playing this game I highly recommend giving it a try, sounded a bit intimidating when I first read about it.....but it's not at all.

Aj

I read an interesting comment on the game on wizard of odds recently where it was stated that if you have a long session playing Pai Gow, given the low volatility of the game, it's really difficult to come out ahead. Mostly it really is a rent a chair, have a drink and probably pay a few dollars for the experience.

I wonder how this would work out with Stratocasterman's Bacc betting strategy?

Irukanji wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 6:42 pm I wonder how this would work out with Stratocasterman's Bacc betting strategy?

I have recently been playing a lot of this on the Wizard of Odds play for fun site.

Heavy's Fibonacci progression works best here. Of course it is not real play but, I have yet to be beat. I have averaged about 10-15% ROI playing between 20-30 hands. Yea, it's boring but, I play it between home craps practice sessions usually.

Actually, I have tried this in a new Baccarat betting strategy test with some good results so far, with my Baccarat Buster2 software. I bet either Banker or Player on EVERY HAND of the shoe. As long as you get a "back to back" Win within 8 losses in a row, it is profitable. Yes, once again, it can be boring!

Boring wins . . . until it loses. LOL. Unfortunately, Pai Gow Poker has just about disappeared from US casinos. I guess there are better paying licensed games out there. You'll see the game here and there, but it's rare.

heavy wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 2:28 pm Boring wins . . . until it loses. LOL. Unfortunately, Pai Gow Poker has just about disappeared from US casinos. I guess there are better paying licensed games out there. You'll see the game here and there, but it's rare.

True...is slowly disappearing here as well, last I paid any attention.

The table used to be right opposite the one and only craps table. I would play Pai Gow and watch the craps table. Now, they have rearranged everything in the casino so, that blows that!