Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

I thought I'd repost this separately to find out what all ya'll think of this situation and how would you handle it? It's a long read, but it's cut and pasted verbatim from the thread titled, "The All, Small and Tall Bet" so if you read it there, you can skip it here and just answer the question. I posed in the first sentence.

I ran into a real "delay" during my last table session. I know I'm 'post to be more PC and tolerant of folks more "unfortunate" than me, but this guy takes the cake for unintended delays. He was wheel-chair bound, it seemed he was extremely introverted, and spastic. Or at least, possibly afflicted with Parkinson's with an extremely sore throat. ha.

I know his life can't be no fun AT ALL, ALL the time, and I kept that in mind while I stayed, but even with my understood sense of "hurry up w/o a schedule" he almost got to me. He was certainly exasperating to many players and to the box, dealer, and stick.

I think he was absolutely wheel-chair bound--he couldn't rise up to see the table. He'd drop his money behind the Pass Line and mumble. The guy was dropping ~$40 in red chips to bet DP and odds. REALLY quietly. He was so quiet the bettor two guys over said "I can't hear him" while attempting to listen to help the dealer. That dealer was constantly getting louder and demanding "you're gonna have to speak up; I don't read minds" after several different bets were dropped onto the felt (when Mr SLOOWhand wasn't the shooter).

It was the stickman who had to "hit the target area" with the dice, because the guy couldn't see the table under his nose. The second time the dice came to him, everyone knew to shut up so the dealer could hear and execute his bet. He'd feel around to find the dice like he was blind (which in essence, he was). When his fingers would approach the felt, the stick would tweak his target and push the dice some more; a real 'operation' trying to cooperate with a wandering hand. Then with an extreme tremor in his hand, he'd lift each dice up singly to see the pips, put each one down, paw to align them, correct himself, lift the dice and inspect them again, lower his arm towards the table and practice his arc, and throw into the Hardways. He never threw past the 'E' in COME on the far side. (He was shooting from SO on the right.) Hell, three or four times, the dice didn't get to the HWs but just past the 'C' on his side. Can you say, "RANDOM ROLLER!!???" aside from his attempted setting of the dice, there was nothing practiced about his launch, arc, etc. THAT ticked a coupla guys off.

I pulled out my watch and timed him a couple times. 1 minute 43 seconds from the time he dropped his money until he let go of the dice. Thankfully, he was a don't bettor who only made the one bet and odds (on hisself). His next throw involved no bet on his part so that only took 73 seconds from the time the stick stopped pushin' the dice to when the bettor tossed them. There was a lot of quiet grumbling but the entire crowd and employees tolerated him--though it was becoming obvious the dealers felt he was wearing out his welcome. ("Next time your money hits the table, if I don't hear anything, it's a no bet. I'm not askin' anymore." Wow.) I was maybe surprised at that. I think like everyone else, I didn't quite know how to react as a matter of "etiquette and tolerance". Mebbe Japan has rubbed off on me... HA. ... I wouldn't have forced myself on a buncha people like he did. It'd be like holding up the airline gangway by leading the pack on crutches and pulling a wheeled suitcase.

My "solution"... I waited til I seven'd out and colored up. This isn't the first time I've had to play in this kind of situation, and in the several times I've encountered it, I've just quit the table whether there was another game available or not.

Leaving when any table condition becomes bad for you is the right thing to do in my book. Good call!

I would not have had the patience for all that. I would have pulled down my bets, grabbed my chips, and left. Any contract bets I had would be made dealer bets. You did the right thing.

I see three choices in the matter.

1) Groan and Moan and increase the negativity at the table while waiting.
2) Whistle a peppy tune and think positive thoughts while waiting patiently.
3) Leave.

What rhythm roller points out is a good call and is my choice: #3.

Or as the APC Oracle often says: "If it ain't fun, it's time to run"

Leaving was definitely the right choice here. Well done.

Just do whatever you do with class. I'm sure the guy was embarrassed already without the crew or anyone else making it worse. The dealer's "You're going to have to speak up - I can't read minds" statement was, to say the least, rude under these circumstances. How do you handle a deaf/mute player? Any dealers out there speak sign language? In this case, the box person should have gotten involved and made sure the casino was handling the customer according to whatever their corporate policy is when it comes to disabled patrons. Otherwise a smart-mouthed dealer can cost them a bundle in an American's With Disabilities Act lawsuit.

Nicely stated Heavy. The dealers were dirtbags in this instance and leaving the table is best to prevent potential injury to the loudmouth dealer from a frustrated guest.

skasower

I should correct a false impression I think I made. Only the right-side dealer got "mouthy". The stick was patient in his actions and completely mum, though his facial expression when he made eye contact with me made it obvious he was frustrated (I was at SR1). The box didn't do anything; he seemed completely committed to only observing, neither reprimanding the dealer nor hurrying, nor insulting the shooter.

In the dealer's defense, I thought he was initially quite attentive to Slowhand's needs. There were 4 shooters on that side from the dealer's first to the hook, so any time Slowhand dropped chips on the table, they rolled amongst the bets from the shooters flanking him. After one full circuit around the table, I think he'd had his fill.

The only reason I stayed was because I was walking by and my old familiar favorite spot opened up and was very curious to see how my new take on tossing for target-only would fare. I waited through 5 shooters to take my turn (with 9 at the table including me), but after I finished my session I quit. After so much practice and two live sessions from SO, tossing from SR1 seemed like pitching a baseball from a softball diamond, but the reason I quit was, by the time I got the dice, there were 14 players, and such a vocal volume there was no way I was staying, despite a firm feeling that every player was very well experienced. Someday I'll try again from SR1, but next time with the same "overhand" toss as from SO that I've been using lately. That last SR1 session buried my favoritism for the UH toss I think.

Heavy's comments made me wonder what the box was supposed to do... and I know that playing is Slowhand's right, but if that was me, at most I'd have chosen a more empty table (and he was playing at another table with 3 others when I walked by later (while the first table still had ~14 players).

I've been in a similar situation as a "boxman". I was teaching an after-school community class of junior high-schoolers once and a single mother brought her developmentally-disabled child in to enroll him. (on an aside--not to be PC correct, but to be considerate of relatives/friends and especially the abstract "person"--is "developmentally-disabled" the correct description nowadays? I had to rewrite this because I used "retarded" before I "cleaned it up", which as an old dude seems perfectly proper to me, but ya never know now. So, what's correct? from you guys who get out with the public--gimme a clue) In her describing her son, she said part of the reason she wanted him to attend the class was because it was an all-male class almost exclusively run by men only, and since he didn't have a father figure at home (abandoned them when his disabilities became apparent, she said), this was something he really needed.

He was eager to join; it seemed about 2/3 of the kids in the class knew him--though as with the crap players, it didn't seem they relished the idea of working with him. He was oblivious to their muted reactions as word spread. I had to treat him as an equal to the others though it was obvious that the entire group would suffer because of his presence. His mother said something I'll never forget (and part of the reason I found it easier than a lot of the players to tolerate Slowhand); I'd told her that the class structure required that I collect all the fees and supply costs up front, and that from her description of her son's disabilities, it seemed apparent to both of us that he wouldn't "last" very long. His attention span was probably no longer than 3 minutes, and his retention maybe less. I told her that it seemed outrageous to me that she had to pay the ~$45 sum (in 1983 dollars) for a class we agreed he'd be fortunate to last beyond a week, so I told her I'd keep him off the books until it was proven he could endure, but he'd have to do without the class-furnished supplies/props for the 3-day week because I couldn't access them (from another person) without the money.

This was what she said: "I have to pay it. Part of his desire to join is the need to feel part of the group. He's cognizant enough to realize that not to have his own supplies excludes him. He spends so much time isolated away from these other boys by his tutors and special needs counselors that he absolutely relishes his time amongst them almost no matter their conduct. He doesn't notice if there's malice, and the expense means nothing to him. But I have to give him the chance when he finds something appealing because so little is. " I never saw him again after the second lesson; 3 hours total and he was gone forever (and I never saw his mother again either), but it was a lesson in tolerance or the lack thereof that I never forgot.

Still, I wonder what the right and acceptable conduct should be from the casino's perspective, and my own as a player, when it's obvious that inclusion has a blatantly negative effect on the entire group. And then there's Heavy's point, that there's a legal requirement in this country that one very likely would not see overseas.

dork wrote: ↑Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:19 am (on an aside--not to be PC correct, but to be considerate of relatives/friends and especially the abstract "person"--is "developmentally-disabled" the correct description nowadays? I had to rewrite this because I used "retarded" before I "cleaned it up", which as an old dude seems perfectly proper to me, but ya never know now. So, what's correct? from you guys who get out with the public--gimme a clue)

I think the term you're looking for is a "special needs child". There's probbaly a few different terms used that are considered acceptable, but keep in mind you're bound to offend someone no matter what term is used.

Thanks, BD!

22Inside wrote: ↑Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:11 pm Or as the APC Oracle often says: "If it ain't fun, it's time to run"

Leaving was definitely the right choice here. Well done.

I've also had a few similar occasions but at least these guys could stand and grab the dice. 1 was a high roller buy-in $2-3K and bet $640 or $1280 across. His wife and dealers would make bets and he call them out. Had Cerebral Palsy or Parkinson's but no arm coordination. Usually from SR3 or hook he would toss them straight at stick(I'd turn and face stick from SR!). He usually on try 1 or 2 times then just bet. Another younger guy with CP had trouble picking them up and after hit Stick 3-4 times the stick asked the box to intervene, "1 more time you hit the Stickman, we will pass the dice" Sure enough 2 throws later...

Along the lines of long table delays...

Does anyone experience new "dealers in training" at the tables? Is it common in the US? I didn't start playing craps until I moved to Manila. So, I haven't played on a US table yet believe it or not.

Here in the Philippines the average age is roughly 28-30, so most casinos hire 20-24 year olds by the dozens for dealers. they come, they go. They do go through some training before hitting the tables but, not much. It is trial by fire as it is said! They usually have only a Supervisor that watches over them from a distance.

This makes for long delays as they are trying to figure payoffs and the likes of pressing, etc. To make things worse, most players at the table are so f'n rude to them on top of it, by shouting out payoffs and the such out of frustration. I guess it could be a parental gut response to yell at kids too. These new dealers HAVE to make their own determination of the payouts, NOT what others say it is! Some players are so stupid that they don't even realize THEY are even making the delays longer! I usually tell people to STFU and let the new dealers figure it out. If your bet/payout isn't right, tell them or the box.

I generally lay back pretty low but, when riled up or have had enough, I let EVERYONE know what I think about it. What seems to make matters even worse is that you are constantly on the lookout for errors. This is SO distracting, especially if you are the shooter. I have been screwed several times, as the shooter, by asking for a regression or take me down and they don't get it right. They are tossing money at me and I am in SABRE mode, so I just quickly grab it and rack it, then learn later I am missing cash I knew I should have.

I suppose we always have a choice...when it's time to go, it's time to go. rhythm roller...you are exactly right!