Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Maybe this has been posted before, but I haven't found this "system" on the forum. Darkside iron cross. $50 on the DP, $4 on the yo. Come out.
Your number is..say 9 or whatever. $10 on the 5, $12 6 and 8, $5 on the field and place the 9 for $35.
So now you have $46 value on the DP (You lost $4). If a seven shows you win $46, but lose $74 for a total of -$28. If a 9 comes, you end
up -$46+$49+ your field bet of $5..Plus $8. Meanwhile if there is a run without a seven or nine you win on every throw.

Have at it. Yeah..it does take quite a few hits to make up for that possible early loss. You can remove the darkside bets at
any time, or just keep those and remove the place and field bets if the shooter starts looking shakey.

I dont know man. You are now fighting the 7 twice.....on the comeout, and after the point is established.

This is true.I added the place bet for the 9 having been slammed on the darkside with numbers being made, but that bet could be removed. Any darkside play is subject to two misfortunes anyway..the 7 on the comeout or on a DC bet and the number being hit. The OHCM is a safer move.

Yes, the problem with this one is for sure sneaking that $50 DP by the Sheriff and the Deputy. How would Heavy approach this? Or as the new acronym says, WWHD?

Let's try this approach. $30 DP on the Come Out. If you want a partial hedge try a $41 no 4 or 10 or a $31 no five or nine. I'd probably go the $31 route.

Once you have the $30 DP established you could play a $20 DC. The DC is hedged by the $30 DP against the seven, but you might want to toss out a buck on the eleven if you're paranoid to the extent that you're afraid of getting beaten 2 times out of 36. I'll go bare on it.

Once you have THAT bet established you have $50 in Don't Action up. NOW you can try your Iron Cross. You might want to adjust the size of your place bets above based on which number has the $30 DP on it and which one has the $20 DC on it, but other than that it's the same general concept.

Personally, I like the OHCM better. I did well with it the few times I played it (and I should have played it more) in Biloxi - playing it at the $18 level. $18 DP. Outside numbers get placed for $15 to win $21 or $27 minus $15. Six and eight bet placed for $18 for a wash or to win $21 netting $3. On several occasions I was able to get my six or eight up to $42 last weekend on this play, although I never got that $50 for $1 hit. A testament to the fact that the Don'ts won overall in Biloxi.

Hi thnick--interesting concept and I like your creativeness as that's what will solicit good ideas/comments. Ive never used the DIC as you present above so I cant speak with much realtime knowledge of its performance. We never know if something will work til we put it through trials--Ive seen some crazy iron cross-type approaches work that I wouldn't believe if I hadn't seen them.

My first thoughts on the DIC are: a) a lot of hedges, b)high risk amount for potential ROI.
The $126 risk amount would likely produce a better ROI by simply doing a single no hedge $100DC, +4 on a loss, -4 bk to $100 on a W, toss the dice trying to avoid a 12 on comeout. Quit when your up any amount above $100(1U). Easy peasy---but my suggestion obviously wouldn't be an iron cross, which is what you presented, it would simply be a D C.

Again, good thoughts, first time ive heard of the term Darkside Iron Cross. Thx for tossing a creative idea out there for us to ponder.

All the best,
Tgold

I used to play something similar....a $25 DP, say it goes to the 9, then place the 6 & 8 at $12 each, and the 5 at $10. That's $34 action, then lay odds on the DP, say $21. so if its a PSO -34 + 25 + 14 = net + $5; or as soon as you get a hit on one of the three place bets, you pull the lay odds, giving you a $25 DP and $20 net at risk. you can mix the amounts but for me having less risk on the DP is preferred. Some times, I've even placed the 4 & 10 for ten each and increased the lay odds - with the goal to reduce the lay with each hit on a place number; or I leave off the 5 and cover the evens - up to you.

Oh and if the $25 DP gets banged by the Sheriff or the Deputy, I can go to $40 or $45 on the DP get a point then do some kind of "$44" across where I place 4 of the 5 non point numbers. Normally I'd take a couple of hits before thinking of the field bet, but that's me

I like the DP + odds as it can reduce some volatility, something else for you to ponder, D.N8r

More fodder for the Darksider's Ball weekend in September!

D.N8r wrote,

I used to play something similar....a $25 DP, say it goes to the 9, then place the 6 & 8 at $12 each, and the 5 at $10. That's $34 action, then lay odds on the DP, say $21. so if its a PSO -34 + 25 + 14 = net + $5; or as soon as you get a hit on one of the three place bets, you pull the lay odds, giving you a $25 DP and $20 net at risk. you can mix the amounts but for me having less risk on the DP is preferred. Some times, I've even placed the 4 & 10 for ten each and increased the lay odds - with the goal to reduce the lay with each hit on a place number; or I leave off the 5 and cover the evens - up to you.

Oh and if the $25 DP gets banged by the Sheriff or the Deputy, I can go to $40 or $45 on the DP get a point then do some kind of "$44" across where I place 4 of the 5 non point numbers. Normally I'd take a couple of hits before thinking of the field bet, but that's me

I like the DP + odds as it can reduce some volatility, something else for you to ponder, D.N8r

This approach to the game is both foreign and intriguing to me. It shows me i have so much more to learn to be successful playing craps.

Yes it is; its fun to bet all five remaining numbers after getting a DP to a point. I especially like tinkering with the odds after every toss outcome. Always perplexes the dealers - but they figure it out. My goal is simple, get enough hits so that when I'm ahead I can choose when to place the point, which I always do on the line near the DP. Normally it's to mark time till I can get the dice.

2 years ago, I was at Harrah's LV, and tried this about a time a randy started banging outside numbers. Five was the DP and I placed all the evens with a $30 lay on the DP. After a 6 & 8 hit, I pulled the odds, got a hit on the 10, pressed it to $25 instead of putting the whole thing in the rail, next was a four and did the same. I was trying to remember my Heavy power press moves, so pocketed the next ten hit, then things got crazy. Two more tens with a midnight in between, I had pressed to $50 and then $100, took all that hit, then pressed to $150. Yeah I forgot the moves - I think it was like the second time I'd gotten to a black 10. Then she banged back-to-back hard fours. She never made the point, I wound up with a $400 10 & took the hit; a few trash tosses later she sevened out, and I got paid for the don't which was basically forgotten. It doesn't get much better than that for playing both sides. I didn't even wait to toss, just took my chips to the cage, D.N8r

Big O wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:47 pm
This approach to the game is both foreign and intriguing to me. It shows me i have so much more to learn to be successful playing craps.

Big O,
That's what's so great about craps - there's so many ways to approach it - being prepared to go right or go dark as you get into a hand while reducing some of the risk if you don't go deep, can be rewarding. Of course you always need to watch out for the Sheriff and the Deputy - nothing cuts into your tactics faster than those two. Wargame it, maybe you'll see a variation you like, cheers, D.N8r

D.N8r stated above on Apr 01, 2019 10:54 pm : "... I especially like tinkering with the odds after every toss outcome. .."

I agree and think we should always view it in this manner. I like to view the changing probabilities as "What is the probability of any shooters' hand surviving past the Xth roll?"
This probability obviously changes with each passing roll as we approach that critical 4th/5th jct . This is one of the main benefits as a DONT player and a major obstacle for us when wagering as a DO player (e.g., IF we have three numbers placed and the shooters hand ends after say roll two, then we absolutely can not/will not receive three hits on that shooters hand....etc,).

Good thoughts everyone

All the best,'
Tgold

What you really want is to train your skill until you see some numbers more rarely...ex for me some sets it’s 4, some it’s 5, some it’s nine. Make enough data to be reliably sure and try your luck laying that number even on comeouts, then the 7 pays you and 11 doesn’t affect you.

Still a hedge strategy which means you exposed more money to the house edge and should lose more over given long therm time.

Tgold wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:22 am D.N8r stated above on Apr 01, 2019 10:54 pm : "... I especially like tinkering with the odds after every toss outcome. .."

I agree and think we should always view it in this manner. I like to view the changing probabilities as "What is the probability of any shooters' hand surviving past the Xth roll?"
This probability obviously changes with each passing roll as we approach that critical 4th/5th jct . This is one of the main benefits as a DONT player and a major obstacle for us when wagering as a DO player (e.g., IF we have three numbers placed and the shooters hand ends after say roll two, then we absolutely can not/will not receive three hits on that shooters hand....etc,).

Good thoughts everyone

All the best,'
Tgold

While I have a DP with a lay, and have placed three or five of the other numbers; I know on the next toss the seven could be there, or the point could be there - and many times they will be. So, you adjust your lay as you rack your hits; break even on a few, or not; while looking for a longish hand. There's been times the point gets bullfrogged; or PSOs abound; that's when you have to just back off - accept it, see where you are; and decide to continue, observe, slide to another table, or hit the buffet.....

D.N8r

The most important weapon for a darksider is to be able to throw a seven and keep the dices. That’s where playing DP on comeout is wrong. You should lay a number cuz you win on the seven against 3-4 or 6 way the dice can show?

Of course you can lose a few and it does hurt. But say you manage to do less 5 and lay 60$ on comeout. And you whip the dice for a few comeout sevens, you make 40$ a pop! Of course you won’t win everytime, but some tables are designed to make the dices double spin! That’s your greatest advantage!

That's good. $10 PL, $41 no ten, set sevens.

Right on

DarthNater wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:54 pm Yes it is; its fun to bet all five remaining numbers after getting a DP to a point. I especially like tinkering with the odds after every toss outcome. Always perplexes the dealers - but they figure it out. My goal is simple, get enough hits so that when I'm ahead I can choose when to place the point, which I always do on the line near the DP. Normally it's to mark time till I can get the dice.

2 years ago, I was at Harrah's LV, and tried this about a time a randy started banging outside numbers. Five was the DP and I placed all the evens with a $30 lay on the DP. After a 6 & 8 hit, I pulled the odds, got a hit on the 10, pressed it to $25 instead of putting the whole thing in the rail, next was a four and did the same. I was trying to remember my Heavy power press moves, so pocketed the next ten hit, then things got crazy. Two more tens with a midnight in between, I had pressed to $50 and then $100, took all that hit, then pressed to $150. Yeah I forgot the moves - I think it was like the second time I'd gotten to a black 10. Then she banged back-to-back hard fours. She never made the point, I wound up with a $400 10 & took the hit; a few trash tosses later she sevened out, and I got paid for the don't which was basically forgotten. It doesn't get much better than that for playing both sides. I didn't even wait to toss, just took my chips to the cage, D.N8r

I went to Charles town saturday. Lost about $400 and asked for a carry out dinner comp...I was tired and hungry. I was mad at myself too for not sticking to one strategy. I had my carryout in my hand..tail between my legs. I was about 10 feet from my Jeep. I then decided to go back in, eat my food at a table instead of while I was driving home. I had a difficult week this past week...and I had hoped that a day at the casino was going to end on a positive note.

I found a quiet table to eat and thought about my play earlier and how I could have bet better. When I first arrived, I threw and hit 3 points. But then the dice got switched out and after that my throws were not good at all. I could see the dice hitting the felt and grabbing it and it was like the brakes were put on. I saw this with others as well. I then didn't throw, and decided to just bet the dark side.

The table was choppy and when a good roll did start its hard for me to switch from DP to paying numbers that are hitting. I read some things that heavy has said are indicators of a good roll..but I get stuck in the trenches I think and didn't act on those suggestions..which was my down fall?

Anyway..back to yesterday and my long story...

While munching on the good food..shrimp and chinese I chose...I decided to play some roulette. I rarely play roulette...but i wanted to try a strategy i had read. Well, I did..but it was not getting me anywhere fast..but finally I had won $20 and the guy next to me that wasn't playing..but was smoking and it was coming in my face..so I decided to take my $20 win and leave and slowly go see who was at the table.

I walked back to the craps table that had lost my $400 to. I inquired about the table and new people throwing. I decided to do the DP again. Sometimes I threw $3 to protect my dp...but that was only after making about $70 in DP winnings on a cold table and losing a few times to the ones that threw 7's on the come out. Up already from my original $20..since I had my $100 in a black chip that i said.."self..dont play with". Then this one guy..random player as ever...started throwing...so damn random..but the numbers he'd toss!! 4's. I still wasn't going to play ..but then I said self...put $15 on the 4 next time he is throwing after establishing the $15 DP..worst case...is I lose $15.

So. he had made a few points and had thrown 1 4 already when the dice came back to him. So I did my DP of $15 and placed the 4 for $15. Next come out..His point is the 4. I feel it's a win win situation. If he 7's out..I am even. If he hits the point, I take the $15 to put back on my dp line and I take the winnings..and buy it for $25. He hits the 4..sure as shit. Next come out..still a $15 DP line..to protect my initial investment. The new point is a 6. He then tosses a 4. The boxman is giving everyone else a hard time..because like me..he sees the pattern..and no one else is buying the 4..they are all on 6 and 8 mostly. I then dropped 2 dollars..and made it a $50..and have $25 locked up. He throws a different number..then a 4 again. I drop $5 and now its a $100 4. With $50 locked up. A couple throws later..yup..another 4. I lock up $125 and put $75 with my $100. A few more throws larter..and I wished I had dropped it back to $25..but nope..I left $175 on the table..but had $200 on my rack. I played for a bit more, but I locked away the $300 that I had won in the last hour..and when the extra was lost..I colored up and came home. I lost $100 for the day instead of $400...which I hated, but I also walked away with another way to play. I got the idea of doing this from Darthvader here...from our recent convo..just wished I had enacted on it during my play fro the get go.

Next time I am going to try laying the 5 or 9 on the come put to protect my dp on the come out. I would think this could be better than dropping $3 or more to cover the 7's each time...since if the 7 doesnt roll..I can bring my lay back down..and recoup my silly $1 as well. Thoughts? Maybe keep the lay up and place a DC as well? then bring my lay down?

The boxman is a cool guy btw...he knows that I am very conservative...but he was giving everyone a hard time about not placing the 4 since this guy was throwing lots of 4's...but he finally saw my large bet on the 4 and he was all smiles . I did this same type move at MGM last month and won $400. That time in particular I had noticed the 4 hadnt been thrown in awhile by anyone really and thought..it was due. I took a chance of buying the 4 and the guy threw 3 fours in a row as soon as I made my bet. The first was a hard 4 and the others were all soft 4's. That time I got smart and after the last hit on a $125 - 4..I went to $200..but then immediately turned around and told the dealer to take it back down to $25. He 7'd out the next throw..and I had saved all but $25 of the initial investment. Luck?..probaby...but that little voice in my head was talking..and I was listening.

Jeepers, Jeepgirl,
Nice read of the table, I did something similar today with the ten; got it to $50 from a nickel with a randy. I had a $5 DP on the four and a $5 DC on the six; and opted to place the ten hoping I'd get a hit there before he sevened out; he threw 4 tens in like less than 8-9 tosses. All you can do is position yourself to break even on one side while having an opportunity for a positive return on the other.

Well done, D.N8r

DarthNater wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:12 pm Jeepers, Jeepgirl,
Nice read of the table, I did something similar today with the ten; got it to $50 from a nickel with a randy. I had a $5 DP on the four and a $5 DC on the six; and opted to place the ten hoping I'd get a hit there before he sevened out; he threw 4 tens in like less than 8-9 tosses. All you can do is position yourself to break even on one side while having an opportunity for a positive return on the other.

Well done, D.N8r

Very well done....yea..its tough to play when they are just slinging the dice..and thats what he was doing..just slinging them..but the 4's kept showing u..so I finally went for it instead of being a bystander

Just have to keep in my mind that any damn thing, no matter how weird can happen with random shooters. Endless 9s..5s..4s..like they were setting for them! I used to start out with a $10 DP and then a $10 come bet. 7 got me two wins fast or the come bet traveled to a number the guy kept hitting. Insane. I learned to back up that come bet with good odds.