Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

Question 1-We know crap less craps can be beaten by sniping the extremes when the juice is paid after the hit;however can it be beaten when the casino takes the juice before and after the hit?

Question 2-At Cherokee this weekend I saw a player do a continuous come bet at the crap less table and upon a hit on the 6/8 place it;such a move avoids the upfront and back end juice ;can this work? Continuous come betting needs capital which the player had.

kumar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:34 pm Question 1-We know crap less craps can be beaten by sniping the extremes when the juice is paid after the hit;however can it be beaten when the casino takes the juice before and after the hit?

Question 2-At Cherokee this weekend I saw a player do a continuous come bet at the crap less table and upon a hit on the 6/8 place it;such a move avoids the upfront and back end juice ;can this work? Continuous come betting needs capital which the player had.

I've never heard of a play that takes a vig before AND after a hit on the extremes. It's generally an up front vig on the extremes but not on the back end. I would almost certainly not play at a place that tried to double dip on the vig like that. But if you can hit the extremes, even an up front vig game can be profitable.

Sorry 220 inside I may have misled you
At Cherokee on the 4/10 and extremes they take a Vig when the bet is placed;if that bet hits they take another Vig

In Mississippi they take the Vig only when it hits

kumar wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:13 am Sorry 220 inside I may have misled you
At Cherokee on the 4/10 and extremes they take a Vig when the bet is placed;if that bet hits they take another Vig

In Mississippi they take the Vig only when it hits

No worries. So at Cherokee, they take the vig up front. In MS they take the vig after a win on 4, 5, 9 and 10.

In MS, the vig on the extreme outsides is collected up front.

Obviously collecting the vig up front ups the house edge pretty significantly. But if you have an edge on those numbers with your toss and set, you can definitely still overcome that edge and profit from them,

kumar wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:13 am At Cherokee on the 4/10 and extremes they take a Vig when the bet is placed;if that bet hits they take another Vig

So @ Cherokee you'll be paying a (10%) total vig, if the 4/10 or extreme numbers is hit?
Am I interpreting that correctly .... (5%) upfront & another (5%) when the bet hits?

ro11player wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:40 am

kumar wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:13 am At Cherokee on the 4/10 and extremes they take a Vig when the bet is placed;if that bet hits they take another Vig

So @ Cherokee you'll be paying a (10%) total vig, if the 4/10 or extreme numbers is hit?
Am I interpreting that correctly .... (5%) upfront & another (5%) when the bet hits?

NO. It's a standard 5% vig on the bet paid up front.

rp,
No, the next 5% is for the "next" bet. If you take your bet down you wouldn't pay the second 5%.

Thanks 220Inside & realtime .... now it makes sense

kumar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:34 pm Question 1-We know crap less craps can be beaten by sniping the extremes when the juice is paid after the hit; however can it be beaten when the casino takes the juice before and after the hit?

I know this has been address in other replies, but my casino takes all Vigs upfront. If the bet wins, they require you to pay another Vig in advance of the next hit. If you take the bet down after the hit, you've only paid a single Vig, same as if it was paid after.

The Vig is paid just once in both cases. The only difference is that if the 7 comes, you already paid the Vig even though it never hit. Post-hit Vigs save you the money if the 7 comes first.

- Chris

I only play in Vegas and would never ever pay upfront. I think it's completely stupid. I bet 52k across and would owe I think 1500 upfront for 2,3,4,10,11,12 whether it hits or not. It's not possible to win doing that.

Many thanks for the feedback
I agree upfront vigs makes the game expensive
that is why I like Mississippi and Vegas that have a vig only if it hits

Good thread Kumar/ comments from all.

Kumar: " ..Cherokee on the 4/10 and extremes they take a Vig when the bet is placed;if that bet hits they take another Vig..."

IMO this is usury and players should avoid purchasing their product from this store, so the store owner changes their policy. I will add If I was the store owner, I would do the same thing if I could get by with it.

This would be analogous to entering Walmart and the greeter asking: Sir, how much will you be purchasing today?
Me: $100.
Greeter: That will be $5, and oh yeah the clerk will also charge you taxes at checkout,...etc.

OR

Depositing $100K with your brokerage house and them saying: Sir we will take $2.5%(2500) off the top and depending on how well your investment performs we will take additional fees for the life of this investment.
Me: So you're saying I'm only investing <=97,500 with any potential for growth?


In the Midwest many of the indian casinos charge an ante up front on the bet placed(part of their pacts with the state), "+" charge a vig on buy bets. I absolutely will not play at these joints. The more intelligently managed casinos track the wagers and pay this for the player if players are gaming at what they call their high-limit tables (typically determined as >=$25 or $50),...etc at whatever level the casino has predetermined as their respective high-limit tables. Typically, they only do this for Bac,craps and roul.

*I strongly encourage players to track every single fee they pay for a full session (i.e., vig, ante, tip for the water girl, tokes to dealers,etc) and then divide that total amount into total wagers amount. This is a great exercise for players in Missouri/then take the short jaunt over to Mississippi for comparison.

**Yesterday I purchased gas at a Walmart gas station(Murphys i think) and paid $2.88 for 91. Approx 2 blocks away the price was .32c higher at $3.20. 11% higher.
Me: "I ride with Murphy".


All the best,

Laughlin, NV casinos all take the vig upfront.